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M. Hausknecht

AP Upper Q

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M. Hausknecht

Hi Guys,

The AP upper for the FZ/MT 07 has been molded to accommodate a ram air type duct. It appears to be the shape you see on late model R1s, R6s, and R3s but I wonder if anyone knows whether the dimensions match any of those? I've been noodling ram air for my race bike.....

 

 

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mossrider
58 minutes ago, M. Hausknecht said:

Hi Guys,

The AP upper for the FZ/MT 07 has been molded to accommodate a ram air type duct. It appears to be the shape you see on late model R1s, R6s, and R3s but I wonder if anyone knows whether the dimensions match any of those? I've been noodling ram air for my race bike.....


I bought a pre-raced 2005 SV6550 from another racer two years ago...

 

I messed with it extensively a couple years ago. I got it to work but it only made marginal improvements (1%) at very high speed, say over 125mph, which is only like 2% of any given lap and produced ridability issues in tail/crosswinds or heavy drafting traffic etc. There was more effect from the cold air aspect which provides benefits across the Rev range at all speeds. Even those that marketed it initially as 'ram air' changed to simply calling it 'cold air intake' since the ram gains were virtually immeasurable at our typical race speeds yet guys were getting about 3% gains from cold air at all throttle settings. 

These 3 attached threads back this up and document the work @blackout and I did. 

Don't get me wrong. It works, but I didn't find it worth the trouble when a simple cold air intake system was better across the board.

The design of the snoot hole (missing on the current glass work) was taken from Rossi's M1 which is what the original bodywork was modeled on.  

$.02 

Blue Line Racing

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M. Hausknecht

Thanks much, mossrider.  I've read the blackout thread and now I'll scope out the other two. I've added ram air to only one bike and, much to my delight, it made a marked difference. Quick story: built an FZR 400 superbike. Cams, flatslides, porting, 14:1 compression ratio. Ran it for a season with just trumpets under the tank cover. Second year, built two intake bell mouths into front fairing (right in the middle, where pressure was highest), and attached 1" ID hose to each and routed them into the tank cover which I had modified to create a large sealed air box.  Never measured volume but it had to be 3-4 liters. With the ram air and airbox, I had to run 1-2 teeth taller to avoid running out of gear (back straight Road Atlanta especially). I don't expect the some level of improvement with the 07, likely because there just isn't enough room to create a sufficiently large air box to avoid pressure drop for the second cylinder's inhale. 

Regards, Michael

 

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mossrider

I think the pages the airbox stuff is on in the MNSBR thread are 48 to maybe 55.

Could be on the fz's airbox, some of the suzuki guys are still messing with ram air but they have more room to play with.

 

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M. Hausknecht

Thanks Dave. I gather you only used Blackout's airbox with the intake hose on the dyno, correct? When you did so, were you using the upper fairing and, if so, where was the intake hose attached and in what manner? I see from Blackout's photos that he never  created a ram air system on his bike. He just stuck a K&N filter on the end of the hose and placed it loosely behind the hole he'd cut in the fairing. That sort of thing works well with cars to get relatively cool intake air. 

With the 07 there are clearly packaging challenges in creating a a large enough airbox and with getting high pressure air from the front of the bike to the airbox. Thanks again for your help.

Regards, Michael 

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mossrider

I did a total of 48 dyno runs over the years in various stages of tune working on several projects. 

With the ram air I did a dozen runs with and without bodywork. With and w/o forced air simulating high speed running. 

I ran Blackouts box, both in ram air configuration and in simple cold air configuration. I ran velocity stacks. I ran Hord's box and several variations of the stock airbox on the dyno. Each had it's strengths and weaknesses. The best over all for my particular motor build was a modified stock air box. Many of the other MotoAmerica guys agreed as this year saw a bunch of modified stock boxes instead of the crazy 3d jobs from the 2 year's before. We were always in the top group in trap speed and in fact have a gps documented top speed in an actual race of 155mph, the highest speed I'm aware of. That's rocket fast for a lightweight class bike. 

I plumbed the ductwork to the front fairing hole in a couple different fashions. That would normally be the best place to pick up air. I tried terminating it several other places as well. I tried it on track some too where I ran into some ridability issues. Granted with more work I could have solved so.e of the issues but season was upon us and it was go time so I abandoned the project.

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blackout

If you have the time and patience, you can't go wrong with ram air.  My box used the stock length Hord velocity stacks which I think are too long for race engines with internal mods.  I love the Hord airbox, but even shorter stacks are probably beneficial on a race engine.

Also, I think a wide band oxygen sensor with an auto tune feature and data logging will get you more info than a chassis dyno.  It will give a better tune as you are tuning under actual race conditions.  The data logger will allow you to look at air fuel ratios while racing and confirm the auto tune feature is performing properly.   The Dynojet pod-300 display does this for a little over $200.  Or go with other options.


Craig Mapstone
Upstate New York

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M. Hausknecht

Thanks guys. I've got a Hordpower on the bike now, with a wideband O2 connected to an aRacer RC Super2 I can set up for autotune.  More fun and games ahead!

 

 

 

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blackout
1 hour ago, M. Hausknecht said:

Thanks guys. I've got a Hordpower on the bike now, with a wideband O2 connected to an aRacer RC Super2 I can set up for autotune.  More fun and games ahead!

 

 

 

You are all set then.  No need anymore for a chassis dyno.  With my latest project involving drag racing, I'm hearing many guys prefer to tune with Autotune and a data logger.  It gives better results supposedly. 


Craig Mapstone
Upstate New York

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mossrider
Just now, blackout said:

You are all set then.  No need anymore for a chassis dyno.  With my latest project involving drag racing, I'm hearing many guys prefer to tune with Autotune and a data logger.  It gives better results supposedly. 

I'm seeing the same transformation on the crooked track too.   

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Soldier84r1

Mossrider you seem like the type of cat that can answer this one. My little bro picked up a 2015 zx10 with 500 miles the frame was totaled. We went in putting it back together since he picked it up for 300 dollars. The only downside he went with a stunt frame to keep the cost down. Looks and integrity I give it a 10/10 but the bikes airbox for the Ram air scoop went through the neck of the bike. His new stunt frame has a solid neck so no Ram air straight through for under the headlights anymore. That’s gone. I know the scoop reading up on it is pretty freakin scientific as far as being able to force air in by how the width slims off etc. As of now he just runs an open airbox with no real solution to getting around the neck to the front. It bugs me and there’s nothing on customizing Ram air scoops and the box itself. It amost seems to me a custom airbox would be needed that uses the dual scoops now. I forget the name of the frame but I think it’s stunterx. Anyways any ideas would be appreciated. It’s stumped us and it really bugs me. In the end it’s the price we pay for not going oem. Where there’s a will there’s a way? thanks for your time. 

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Soldier84r1


Also we didn’t street fight it we picked up mint 2017 krt fairings with zero miles from a track guy with no miles and converted the 15 to a krt 17 body style if that helps. This is a pic of one we are doing on a 17 zx636 I’m fairly sure it’s the same deal Ram air went through the neck but it’s an extremely weak point on these bikes it seems 3-4K for oem or 1k for stunt frame is just the way we have to roll to keep the cost down and having the loot for performance and giving back to the reliability of oem fairings instead of a Chinese set.  

29D1AF09-4E87-4C81-8BE2-1239146B5CC1.jpeg

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mossrider
11 hours ago, Soldier84r1 said:

Mossrider you seem like the type of cat that can answer this one. My little bro picked up a 2015 zx10 with 500 miles the frame was totaled. We went in putting it back together since he picked it up for 300 dollars. The only downside he went with a stunt frame to keep the cost down. Looks and integrity I give it a 10/10 but the bikes airbox for the Ram air scoop went through the neck of the bike. His new stunt frame has a solid neck so no Ram air straight through for under the headlights anymore. That’s gone. I know the scoop reading up on it is pretty freakin scientific as far as being able to force air in by how the width slims off etc. As of now he just runs an open airbox with no real solution to getting around the neck to the front. It bugs me and there’s nothing on customizing Ram air scoops and the box itself. It amost seems to me a custom airbox would be needed that uses the dual scoops now. I forget the name of the frame but I think it’s stunterx. Anyways any ideas would be appreciated. It’s stumped us and it really bugs me. In the end it’s the price we pay for not going oem. Where there’s a will there’s a way? thanks for your time. 

Yep, you're at where you're at. I'd just tune it for open airbox use and enjoy it for what is now, a cheap, fun bike you can afford to beat on and have some sick fun. You could mess around for months and hemorrhage big bucks fooling with ram air if you like or have a pressing need but you'd quickly pass the cost of a factory replacement frame.

$.02 

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mossrider
11 hours ago, Soldier84r1 said:


Also we didn’t street fight it we picked up mint 2017 krt fairings with zero miles from a track guy with no miles and converted the 15 to a krt 17 body style if that helps. This is a pic of one we are doing on a 17 zx636 I’m fairly sure it’s the same deal Ram air went through the neck but it’s an extremely weak point on these bikes it seems 3-4K for oem or 1k for stunt frame is just the way we have to roll to keep the cost down and having the loot for performance and giving back to the reliability of oem fairings instead of a Chinese set.  

29D1AF09-4E87-4C81-8BE2-1239146B5CC1.jpeg

I love the look of that trellis front but I'm not a big fan of the junction solution going on there. Maybe additional tabs on top and bottom of the flat plate that go over the boxed frame terminus and bolt straight down into it on top and straight up into from the bottom. That's a high stress area.

$.02 1/2

 

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blackout
3 hours ago, mossrider said:

I love the look of that trellis front but I'm not a big fan of the junction solution going on there. Maybe additional tabs on top and bottom of the flat plate that go over the boxed frame terminus and bolt straight down into it on top and straight up into from the bottom. That's a high stress area.

$.02 1/2

 

Agree.  Not a fan.   It may hold up, but bad design.  


Craig Mapstone
Upstate New York

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