"Metal" in oil

[Snake]

Changed my oil last week and noticed some sparkles ("metal" pieces) in the oil, which wasn't the first time but I've always assumed it was dirt from my dirty oil pan. But this time I decided to open up my oil filter, found some pieces of "metal" in the pleats, but they didn't seem magnetic, so must be aluminum? Decided to get a, very strong, magnetic oil plug and after a 400+ km ride there's nothing on there, so whatever I'm seeing in oil isn't magnetic. I usually change my oil every 5000km with full synthetic, but I ride the bike very hard, all the time and it has FT tune with Yosh exhaust. 

Just wondering if anyone has seen/heard about this issue or has an idea where it could be coming from.

2015 FZ-07 with 38000km

[cornerslider]

Hmmmmm...... Were the metal "fine" particles, or more "flaky", like something being shaved off of a bearing race?  I'm assuming the motor itself is stock (cams, pistons, head, etc.?). The stock CP2 motor is pretty bulletproof. With 38,000 Km on the bike, it's barely broken in . Does the motor sound okay? Any unusual sounds like a bearing going out? I've honestly never heard of any issues with a stock CP2 motor.... Good luck, and keep us posted-

[mossrider]

The beginning of the end.

Hopefully those particles you refer to are 'shiney' but not 'metalic', meaning they could be clutch meat, about the only thing in that motor that would not necessarily be catastrophic to see in the oil. 'Some pieces of metal', hopefully one or two and not a bunch, meaning there is an outside chance the filter caught an errant piece of casting flash or a machine sliver from a threaded fastener? You mention riding hard, which also lends itself to destroying clutch discs. I'm curious tho why things are showing up only now? Have you owned the bike since new? 'Very hard riding' for that many miles would generally manifest itself sooner in higher repair and replacements costs like clutches and brakes, crash and abuse repairs and the like. 

About the only way to know is to send an oil sample off for analysis or spend the money and time on a teardown after checking that clutch. 

Good luck.

[cornerslider]

2 hours ago, mossrider said:

The beginning of the end.

Hopefully those particles you refer to are 'shiney' but not 'metalic', meaning they could be clutch meat, about the only thing in that motor that would not necessarily be catastrophic to see in the oil. 'Some pieces of metal', hopefully one or two and not a bunch, meaning there is an outside chance the filter caught an errant piece of casting flash or a machine sliver from a threaded fastener? You mention riding hard, which also lends itself to destroying clutch discs. I'm curious tho why things are showing up only now? Have you owned the bike since new? 'Very hard riding' for that many miles would generally manifest itself sooner in higher repair and replacements costs like clutches and brakes, crash and abuse repairs and the like. 

About the only way to know is to send an oil sample off for analysis or spend the money and time on a teardown after checking that clutch. 

Good luck.

Very sound advise.... I thought about suggesting that earlier today, but sometimes it can become an "analysis-paralysis" situation.... Good luck moving forward -

[Snake]

Yeah bike internals are stock, owned it since it had 9000 km and imo still sounds healthy 

The particles I saw in the oil were super tiny (made its way past the filter I guess) and the stuff in the filter is like 0.010" big, but like I said, it's not this first time I've seen particles in the oil, I was thinking about it and I might have started noticing them like 3 oil change ago? Wouldn't have the engine blown by now? ...lol?

[Snake]

If the engine still sounds strong, could it be cam shaft related?

Or transmission? I often clutch less shift but its rarely "clunky"

[cornerslider]

My "guess" is that it's clutch related.... I had a CRF450R (supermoto) a few years back. I would change the oil every other track day. I noticed fine shiney/metalic particles in the oil for a couple oil changes. Then my clutch started going out.... Once I pulled the side cover off, I could see my clutch basket was pretty much beat to $hit. I replaced the basket, and clutch plates. The oil changes looked normal again.  If you think about it, the clutch is most likely the dirtiest thing your oil comes into contact with. Good luck-

[mossrider]

Keep in mind finding stuff in your filter is how it is supposed to work. That's how the lubrication system is engineered and what the filter is for, to get the junk to the filter quickly and trap it there.

For all practical purposes, under ordinary circumstances the clutch is the only wear item in contact with your oil. Hard use will wear it out. The remains will be visible in the oil and filter. Also keep in mind that the filter only traps particles down to a certain size based on the manufacturer specifications. This can be as high as 40 microns or as little as 5-10 microns. This gets convoluted here because filters are rated by percent efficiency at x micron rating, meaning a 99%@30 micron filter may well do a better job than a 30%@10 micron filter even tho the latter traps smaller particles. So you may well be able to see stuff in your oil that is too small to matter (in the short term).

Having said all that nonsense, the motor can take occasional passage of some decent sized particles thru bearings and such w/o problem. Maybe as big as 50 or greater microns can pass thru a bearing with no problem. In the same vein a constant stream of 10 micron junk will eventually wear out parts. Its a balance act between getting what you can when you can without breaking the bank.

Point being check that clutch and hope that's your problem. Replace it and your oil if it is. Figure out what the problem is if it isn't your clutch. Then keep your oil fresh and keep your eye in the ball from here on.

[Snake]

That clutch material, would it be magnetic?

What type of metals are those made of?

And...what does a worn out clutch feel like? Mine feels like it "always had" granted might have gotten used to some feeling over time.

[mossrider]

No. Most stock clutch discs (were talking about the fiber discs not the steels) are made of a mix of various things like paper, different fiberous materials like cardboard, kevlar, cork, rubber, some sintered metalic junk that may or may not be magnetic. That junk is bonded to the surface of a lugged disc that slots into the outer clutch basket. The alternating 'steels' are notched into the inner clutch hub. This alternating splining of opposite plates is what allows the motorcycle to move (engaged clutch) by locking the plates together under spring pressure, or stop (disengaged clutch) by allowing those plates to twirl against one another.

The only way to inspect it is to take the right side cover off and have a good look. A good indicator inspection may be warranted is if the motorcycles rpm and road speed don't match in the higher gears. Or said another way, if the bike revs up in 5th/6th gears but doesn't change speed the clutch is slipping. 

[cornerslider]

14 hours ago, Snake said:

That clutch material, would it be magnetic?

What type of metals are those made of?

And...what does a worn out clutch feel like? Mine feels like it "always had" granted might have gotten used to some feeling over time.

My supermoto clutch basket got pretty beat-up . I'm assuming adding a "slipper-clutch" to the OEM clutch basket, may have contributed to my situation? I know my basket didn't look like that when I put the slipper in.... The constant banging downshifts into a corner to slide the rear wheel into a corner probably creates quite a bit of shock loading on the entire clutch assembly. Granted, I was using my CRF450R for a purpose for which it was never designed to do.... My clutch basket was aluminum. I'm not sure what material the basket on the 07's are? Most clutches will start to "slip" when starting to wear out. By that, I mean your rpm will go up, but the bike won't accelerate any more. Depending on the bike, sometimes you can catch it early if you run out of cable adjustment. I've also owned bikes with a hydraulic clutch (no adjustments), when the bike won't start moving until lever is nearly all the way out- it's almost time.... Hope that helps you out 

[Snake]

Okay, clutch is definitely not slipping.

BUT! In today's update... This evening I decided to change my  coolant (first time doing so) aaanndd more metal shavings!

As soon as I opened the rad cap I noticed some sparkling coolant (getting tired of this crap lol) and I emptied the overflow bottle into a plastic bottle and you can clearly see the sparkles and when I put a magnet to it there's definitely a part of those shavings that are magnetic and in about 100ml there's a small pinch full of magnetic stuff. Water pump going out?

ALSO after the coolant was changed, I let it high idle (throttle lock) till it got to operating temp and noticed my exhaust headers were red hot, it that normal? (I have a full Yoshi with FTecu and proper tune from power commander) 

[mossrider]

They ain't metal shavings unless someone put them in there. It's scale and corrosion. Neglected coolant will look polluted with 'stuff', rust, corrosion and scale.

And yeah, when you run your bike hard, high idle parked motionless, it's gonna get hot. 

The coolant and oil do not mingle or share space and time in the motor and in deed have very different jobs.

Either you are harder on things than you realize or perhaps someone does not like how hard you ride and has left you some surprises.

[peteinpa]

Both could be left over from the manufacturing process.

I've pulled alluminum spirals out of coolant passages before. 

[mossrider]

2 hours ago, peteinpa said:

Both could be left over from the manufacturing process.

I've pulled alluminum spirals out of coolant passages before. 

Not in the amount he's talking about, and after 6 oil changes and near 40,000 km. Curious that everything is wrong with this bike at the same time. And the metal in the oil reoccurs after changing?

As hard as I am on my race bike I don't have this many problems simultaneously. 

I'm stumped.

[Snake]

And by riding hard I don't mean that I hit rev limiter every gear for 2 seconds, I even lowered it to 9500 rpms and I rarely hit tbh. What I meant was that I hit WOT often, only ever did one burnout. 

Apart from shavings in oil, which like I said I've seen before (never investigated tho), the bike still seems as strong and no weird noises coming out of the engine.

I just don't know what to do next... wait till it blows up?

[peteinpa]

You don't know what the previous owner did to it in 9000 KM either.

Till now I thought these things were bomb proof. Short of running them with no oil.