Should leave it alone, but

[AP996]

1 hour ago, Voz Spoz said:

Thanks so much, yes I now see the reference to 90 degrees in the service manual, easy to miss if you don't know what to look for

This is my first engine/head work.  I would normally have a shop do my work but I thought I would have a go.

I will tilt the engine forward, remove the cams and add the 90 deg to the head bolts. Thanks so much for your knowledge!

I also noted how difficult it was to get the throttle body back in, I put the TB on the head then tilted the engine back and could not get it to mate with the airbox, any tips on getting the TB back on? TIA

I am not running the standard airbox so it’s really easy for me to install the throttle bodies, if I was using the stock airbox I would probably get the engine bolted in then unbolt the airbox and move it back as far as possible and then twist the throttle bodies in to the head and airbox rubbers before bolting it all back up. Remembering removing my airbox and throttle bodies it’s going to be a tight squeeze getting them back in.

You could maybe continue doing it the way you already are by mounting the throttle bodies on head before you swing  the engine up but unbolt the airbox so that you can move it around onto the throttle bodies but I’ve never tried it so can’t say for sure.

[Voz Spoz]

3 hours ago, AP996 said:

I am not running the standard airbox so it’s really easy for me to install the throttle bodies, if I was using the stock airbox I would probably get the engine bolted in then unbolt the airbox and move it back as far as possible and then twist the throttle bodies in to the head and airbox rubbers before bolting it all back up. Remembering removing my airbox and throttle bodies it’s going to be a tight squeeze getting them back in.

You could maybe continue doing it the way you already are by mounting the throttle bodies on head before you swing  the engine up but unbolt the airbox so that you can move it around onto the throttle bodies but I’ve never tried it so can’t say for sure.

Cool. I have the engine swinging on the lowest engine bolt at present, just removed the cams and added 90 deg turn to the head bolts. I noticed that the airbox literally falls out once the engine is removed, I think I will be able to attach the TB to the head then as I am tilting the engine up I will attach the TB to the Airbox and then slide the whole thing back.

Thanks again for your invaluable advice, cheers.

[Aleksandar13]

Amazing work you are doing with this setup... I'm wondering if you have run it on the dyno... 

Looking to get some velocity stacks for mine with a ram air filter and a tune... Would you be able to tell me what the distance is between the throttle bodies, centre to centre? 

I presume 45mm velocity stack will bolt on to the throttle bodies... I'm not riding a mt07 but we share the same heart..  

[AP996]

6 hours ago, Aleksandar13 said:

Amazing work you are doing with this setup... I'm wondering if you have run it on the dyno... 

Looking to get some velocity stacks for mine with a ram air filter and a tune... Would you be able to tell me what the distance is between the throttle bodies, centre to centre? 

I presume 45mm velocity stack will bolt on to the throttle bodies... I'm not riding a mt07 but we share the same heart..  

Hi, distance between the throttle bodies is around 87mm, I used a Ramair MS-010 with 2 stock left side rubber intakes cut short with cut down 40mm Weber bell mouths. With a stock engine, stock header pipes with a Leovince can and this intake I had 74.75 hp on the dyno

[Aleksandar13]

19 hours ago, AP996 said:

Hi, distance between the throttle bodies is around 87mm, I used a Ramair MS-010 with 2 stock left side rubber intakes cut short with cut down 40mm Weber bell mouths. With a stock engine, stock header pipes with a Leovince can and this intake I had 74.75 hp on the dyno

Thanks for your help, this is mega help...  

I'm planing on using the below trumpet with the filter you suggested.  I presume the numbers are on bored out throttle body and not stock ones? Is there any vacuum I need to worry about from the air box? 

Appreciate your help. 

Aleks 

Velocity Stack Trumpet, 45mm Dia, 50mm Long, Universal Fitment with Joining Cuff

---

45mm Dia, 50mm Long Velocity Stack...

 

[Aleksandar13]

On 5/22/2020 at 9:38 PM, AP996 said:

That’s right the throttle plates are standard, the bodies are just bored out where they narrow after the plates.

Not had much spare time due to work commitments but the cylinder head is away being ported, the same work colleague who organised the throttle body machining offered to do the porting so I’ve gone with it. I’m thinking at the moment that I will probably just do the head and the inlet cam, the inlet cam is very mild and actually has less lift and duration than the exhaust. I’ve looked into getting a slightly thinner head gasket, Vesrah in Japan make a gasket 0.5mm thick (0.6 standard), unfortunately they have no stock and they have a minimum order of 2 with a 40 day wait, having to buy 2 and shipping costs, tax’s etc make that uneconomic.

I made enquires with Kent cams and Newman cams, Newman are yet to reply but Kent cams have a regrind that gives 8.40 mm lift and 234 degrees duration at 1mm open.
Hordboy achieved good power without losing the nice midrange power these engines have with just the inlet cam modified so that looks like a good way to go for a bike thats used mainly on the street.

Did Kent cams make you the above spec on the intake cam...? I'm sorry to hijack your thread with questions... I would like to go this route with cams if it is cost effective mod after the intake is finished...  

[AP996]

2 hours ago, Aleksandar13 said:

Thanks for your help, this is mega help...  

I'm planing on using the below trumpet with the filter you suggested.  I presume the numbers are on bored out throttle body and not stock ones? Is there any vacuum I need to worry about from the air box? 

Appreciate your help. 

Aleks 

Velocity Stack Trumpet, 45mm Dia, 50mm Long, Universal Fitment with Joining Cuff

---

45mm Dia, 50mm Long Velocity Stack...

 

The 74.75 hp was with stock throttle bodies, probably could have got a little more if I had spent some time fine tuning on the dyno and I think you would get 2 or 3 hp more with an Akrapovic or Yoshimura exhaust instead of my cut and shut Leovince can and standard headers ( I like the way it looks and sounds and only cost me £85)

I think those velocity stacks would be ok except you may have problems with the frame rails getting in the way of the air filter assuming that the frame is similar to the MT07, maybe you could use some silicone hose with a suitable bend, if you use cut down stock intakes then I don’t think those velocity stacks would fit them as they only have a bore of 42mm.

Yes I had Kent cams reprofle the inlet cam, I think it cost about £142, the engine seems to run really well with this cam, it still pulls really well at low revs and feels much better at high revs, as soon as lock down finishes I’ll get it on the dyno and see if it’s as good as it feels.

[Aleksandar13]

8 minutes ago, AP996 said:

The 74.75 hp was with stock throttle bodies, probably could have got a little more if I had spent some time fine tuning on the dyno and I think you would get 2 or 3 hp more with an Akrapovic or Yoshimura exhaust instead of my cut and shut Leovince can and standard headers ( I like the way it looks and sounds and only cost me £85)

I think those velocity stacks would be ok except you may have problems with the frame rails getting in the way of the air filter assuming that the frame is similar to the MT07, maybe you could use some silicone hose with a suitable bend, if you use cut down stock intakes then I don’t think those velocity stacks would fit them as they only have a bore of 42mm.

Yes I had Kent cams reprofle the inlet cam, I think it cost about £142, the engine seems to run really well with this cam, it still pulls really well at low revs and feels much better at high revs, as soon as lock down finishes I’ll get it on the dyno and see if it’s as good as it feels.

If the stock rubber hoses are 42mm internal I could get the 40mm velocity stacks as they do them as well and that would be a better fit... Maybe needs a bit of tape if they are not snug...  

I think the frame should clear in the t7 as the box has a different shape and the frame is higher up. 

Will you be able to share an email and the exact spec you've got from Kent cams so that I can get in touch with them at some point to get this sorted. Pm me details if it is easier. 

Final questions what Software are you using to map the bike... I am having a debate in my brain about the rapid bike evo or the power vision 3...?

Appreciate your time. 

Aleks 

[AP996]

5 minutes ago, Aleksandar13 said:

If the stock rubber hoses are 42mm internal I could get the 40mm velocity stacks as they do them as well and that would be a better fit... Maybe needs a bit of tape if they are not snug...  

I think the frame should clear in the t7 as the box has a different shape and the frame is higher up. 

Will you be able to share an email and the exact spec you've got from Kent cams so that I can get in touch with them at some point to get this sorted. Pm me details if it is easier. 

Final questions what Software are you using to map the bike... I am having a debate in my brain about the rapid bike evo or the power vision 3...?

Appreciate your time. 

Aleks 

If you email your enquiry to info@kentcams.com they will be able to give all the details, I dealt with a really helpful guy called Tony Woodward.

I use dynojet Powervision 3 software, takes a little time to get your head around it at first but I like that you don’t have to fit anything to the bike and just reflash through the diagnostic port, I also like that you can turn off the closed loop and tune all areas of the map, however I’ve never tried the rapid bike or ftecu so couldn’t say if it’s better or worse than them.

If your in the UK I found I could get a better deal on the Powervision 3 by buying it from Germany, if you decide to go that way I can look up the details of where I bought it from.

 

[Aleksandar13]

2 minutes ago, AP996 said:

If you email your enquiry to info@kentcams.com they will be able to give all the details, I dealt with a really helpful guy called Tony Woodward.

I use dynojet Powervision 3 software, takes a little time to get your head around it at first but I like that you don’t have to fit anything to the bike and just reflash through the diagnostic port, I also like that you can turn off the closed loop and tune all areas of the map, however I’ve never tried the rapid bike or ftecu so couldn’t say if it’s better or worse than them.

If your in the UK I found I could get a better deal on the Powervision 3 by buying it from Germany, if you decide to go that way I can look up the details of where I bought it from.

 

That sounds great... I was hovering towards the pv3 to be fair as it such a simple install... I am new to mapping and probably will end up reading my brains out and using some off the shelf map until I decide to go to a tuner.. I've got Phil around the corner from Seton tuning but he is very busy, you need to book him two months before and his priced a bit steep for my liking ... 

Wouldn't the Germany deal now be gone as we pay duty with Europe? Don't know as I haven't bought anything lately.. It will be worth a try and see. 

Did you write your own map from scratch or have used an existing one and modified it bit by bit..? 

Aleks 

[AP996]

57 minutes ago, Aleksandar13 said:

That sounds great... I was hovering towards the pv3 to be fair as it such a simple install... I am new to mapping and probably will end up reading my brains out and using some off the shelf map until I decide to go to a tuner.. I've got Phil around the corner from Seton tuning but he is very busy, you need to book him two months before and his priced a bit steep for my liking ... 

Wouldn't the Germany deal now be gone as we pay duty with Europe? Don't know as I haven't bought anything lately.. It will be worth a try and see. 

Did you write your own map from scratch or have used an existing one and modified it bit by bit..? 

Aleks 

You may be right about the buying stuff from the EU now, I’m not sure but maybe they won’t charge VAT now and you may or may not be charged for it when it gets here.

I had never messed with mapping before either, takes a bit of thinking about at first but it’s a damn site easier and convenient than pulling a bank of carbs off repeatedly and swapping jets, lifting/lowering needles etc and you can just change the exact area of the Rev range/throttle position that you want. With the pv3 you can import power commander maps as well, I started with a power commander map and then gradually modified it to suit. If your near Colchester your not a million miles from me, I’m near Newmarket.

[Aleksandar13]

7 hours ago, AP996 said:

You may be right about the buying stuff from the EU now, I’m not sure but maybe they won’t charge VAT now and you may or may not be charged for it when it gets here.

I had never messed with mapping before either, takes a bit of thinking about at first but it’s a damn site easier and convenient than pulling a bank of carbs off repeatedly and swapping jets, lifting/lowering needles etc and you can just change the exact area of the Rev range/throttle position that you want. With the pv3 you can import power commander maps as well, I started with a power commander map and then gradually modified it to suit. If your near Colchester your not a million miles from me, I’m near Newmarket.

If you would want to share the buyer with me I could get it ordered... I'm waiting for Beringer caliper to arrive and get the brake sorted out and in the meantime I could start gathering parts for the intake...  

Once lockdown is over we could meet up and share some notes, the coffee is on me as you've helped me out a lot... I've got access to engineering tools so if I can help in any way please let me know. 

Aleks 

[AP996]

14 hours ago, Aleksandar13 said:

If you would want to share the buyer with me I could get it ordered... I'm waiting for Beringer caliper to arrive and get the brake sorted out and in the meantime I could start gathering parts for the intake...  

Once lockdown is over we could meet up and share some notes, the coffee is on me as you've helped me out a lot... I've got access to engineering tools so if I can help in any way please let me know. 

Aleks 

I think the company I got the pv3 from was called MS-Raceparts they are on German eBay, thanks for the offer of help with engineering (and coffee) and if I can help with any other info let me know.

Is the Beringer calliper for the front or the rear?

[Aleksandar13]

8 hours ago, AP996 said:

I think the company I got the pv3 from was called MS-Raceparts they are on German eBay, thanks for the offer of help with engineering (and coffee) and if I can help with any other info let me know.

Is the Beringer calliper for the front or the rear?

No worries, always nice to help people that try to achieve something different...  

Beringer is a 6 piston front caliper with 320mm r1 brake disc... It is a very good setup and praised by a lot of supermoto racers... This with a 17.5mm galespeed master cylinder. 

Aleks 

[AP996]

1 hour ago, Aleksandar13 said:

No worries, always nice to help people that try to achieve something different...  

Beringer is a 6 piston front caliper with 320mm r1 brake disc... It is a very good setup and praised by a lot of supermoto racers... This with a 17.5mm galespeed master cylinder. 

Aleks 

Keeping or removing the abs?

[Aleksandar13]

6 hours ago, AP996 said:

Keeping or removing the abs?

I will be bypassing the pump and leaving it in as I am not aware of a delete kit yet... So I can still have speedo through the abs unit. 

Aleks 

[AP996]

On 3/10/2021 at 2:24 PM, Aleksandar13 said:

I will be bypassing the pump and leaving it in as I am not aware of a delete kit yet... So I can still have speedo through the abs unit. 

Aleks 

This might be of interest if your removing the abs, says it should work on the mt07, doesn’t say if the speedo still works or not.

[Aleksandar13]

1 minute ago, AP996 said:

This might be of interest if your removing the abs, says it should work on the mt07, doesn’t say if the speedo still works or not.

I've been in touch and they say it doesn't work yet on the mt07, they are testing a new version and will come up with a device... Once they have it I will take the pump out and buy their kit. 

Aleks 

[atxjax]

How much work is involved in getting the engine out?

[AP996]

11 hours ago, atxjax said:

How much work is involved in getting the engine out?

Well it’s not a quick job, but at the end of the day it’s just nuts and bolts, hoses and wiring, you do need to support the rear sub frame as the rear shock absorber is mounted on the engine and therefore you can’t do it with the bike on a paddock stand.
If your used to mechanical jobs and have the appropriate tools you should be fine if your not and don’t have the tools then you’d be better paying someone that does.

[AP996]

Dyno time at last!
Got it on the dyno during the week, unfortunately the place I’ve been using have no experience with using the Powervision 3 software so I had to do all the mapping and ecu flashing myself, this certainly slowed everything up and therefore didn’t get to mess with the ignition timing like I had hoped to.

Heres the results

The headline numbers not quite as good as I’d hoped, I’d been expecting around 82-83hp but then again I’m still using the stock header pipes which are bit smaller than all the after market performance pipes, I’m sure a Yoshimura or Akrapovic would give appreciably more power and some time spent on the ignition timing would help too.

The good news is how it’s holding power right to the Rev limit and giving about 80hp all the way from 8500 - 10000 rpm, much better than with the stock motor that was peaking at 8500 to 9000 and then dropping like a stone. See my first dyno run for comparison and that was with a DNA filter and airbox lid, the same exhaust as now and a reflash to suit.

 

[Joaoduarte]

And how does it feel on the road?

Also @AP996 how much money have you invested to rebuild the engine?

[AP996]

6 hours ago, Joaoduarte said:

And how does it feel on the road?

Also @AP996 how much money have you invested to rebuild the engine?

Engine feels good, really strong and so much more free reving.

Costs of building the engine 

Having throttle bodies bored £30 (done by relative of work colleague, bargain)

Cylinder head ported to suit throttle bodies £100 ( same work colleague again didn’t ask for any money)

Cylinder head skimmed £45 (same work colleague’s relative)

Inlet cam regrind approx £170 with tax/postage 

Gaskets, shims, new head bolts etc. approx £160

Labour £0 as I built it

So about £500 to build it, I only paid £257 for the engine and about £30 for the additional throttle bodies (eBay) so the engine and throttle bodies stand me about £800, obviously there are other costs, new NGK platinum plugs, synthetic oil, filter etc.

Dyno time was £240

If I put my stock engine and throttle bodies back in, I think I could get my £800 back without too much trouble but that’s not really the point as I just enjoyed doing it.

[D.A.]

58 minutes ago, AP996 said:

...I only paid £257 for the engine...

Wow! What a deal!

[AP996]

40 minutes ago, D.A. said:

Wow! What a deal!

Yes, another eBay purchase at the beginning of the pandemic, the company selling it turned out to be BDK engineering who make race generators etc. and are only an hour away from me. They said they had got it from a breaker and had done 9000 miles and that they had just used it to check the fit of their generator.

Engines now all seem to be advertised for 2-4 times as much as I paid.