Should leave it alone, but

[AP996]

After getting pretty good results with some fairly simple intake mods I’ve now got the bug and want more so just got another set of throttle bodies bored out.

Picked them up for a mere £30 including a standard airbox and then a friend of a work colleague bored them for another £30 so not a lot of cash invested. Don’t expect to gain much until the cylinder head ports are opened up to match so that leads to another purchase, was looking for a cylinder head and cams but ended up buying another complete engine. Supposed to be a 9000 mile engine but will see what it’s like when I pull it apart

Plan to port the head and get the cams ground as a minimum.

[Joaoduarte]

2 hours ago, AP996 said:

After getting pretty good results with some fairly simple intake mods I’ve now got the bug and want more so just got another set of throttle bodies bored out.

Picked them up for a mere £30 including a standard airbox and then a friend of a work colleague bored them for another £30 so not a lot of cash invested. Don’t expect to gain much until the cylinder head ports are opened up to match so that leads to another purchase, was looking for a cylinder head and cams but ended up buying another complete engine. Supposed to be a 9000 mile engine but will see what it’s like when I pull it apart

Plan to port the head and get the cams ground as a minimum

Hmm wich simple intake mods you Made ?

[AP996]

19 hours ago, Joaoduarte said:

Hmm wich simple intake mods you Made ?

Nothing different to what you’ve already seen, airbox removed, shortened intakes and bell mouths.

[AP996]

Got around to pulling the top of the engine at the weekend, before the head came off I checked the standard cam timing, numbers I got were (with valve 1 mm open)

Exhaust cam, valves open at 37 degrees before BDC, closes at 5 degrees before TDC

Inlet cam, valves open at 5 degrees after TDC, closes at 35 degrees after BDC

been a long time since I did this sort of thing so if you think those numbers look wrong speak up

checked squish clearance with solder and got 0.85 mm (34 thou) at tightest point, anybody out there willing to say how tight you can run these motors?

Only thinner head gasket I’ve seen advertised is the Spears racing one but that looks too thin at 10 thou.
 

[Joaoduarte]

So mate any news about it? 

You got that throttle bodies bored out but the throttle plate is the standart one?

[AP996]

6 hours ago, Joaoduarte said:

So mate any news about it? 

You got that throttle bodies bored out but the throttle plate is the standart one?

That’s right the throttle plates are standard, the bodies are just bored out where they narrow after the plates.

Not had much spare time due to work commitments but the cylinder head is away being ported, the same work colleague who organised the throttle body machining offered to do the porting so I’ve gone with it. I’m thinking at the moment that I will probably just do the head and the inlet cam, the inlet cam is very mild and actually has less lift and duration than the exhaust. I’ve looked into getting a slightly thinner head gasket, Vesrah in Japan make a gasket 0.5mm thick (0.6 standard), unfortunately they have no stock and they have a minimum order of 2 with a 40 day wait, having to buy 2 and shipping costs, tax’s etc make that uneconomic.

I made enquires with Kent cams and Newman cams, Newman are yet to reply but Kent cams have a regrind that gives 8.40 mm lift and 234 degrees duration at 1mm open.
Hordboy achieved good power without losing the nice midrange power these engines have with just the inlet cam modified so that looks like a good way to go for a bike thats used mainly on the street.

[Joaoduarte]

I remembered your work because of a mt07 from thailand with bored throttle bodies iam going to post link to the video he got really good results by boring the throttle bodies

You incread the throttle bodies in the entrance from the airbox and in the exit to the head? You increased it by how much?

[AP996]

22 hours ago, Joaoduarte said:

You incread the throttle bodies in the entrance from the airbox and in the exit to the head? You increased it by how much?

Throttle bodies are stock size on the airbox side, they are opened up to 38mm on the engine side to match the diameter at the throttle plate. There’s quite a restriction on the engine side as stock.

[AP996]

Small update, cylinder head just about finished, intake cam back from being reground, hope to be able to be able to check valve to piston clearance soon and then get the head skimmed to increase compression a little.

Adapted a car engine stand to take the MT07 engine to make working on it a little easier.

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by AP996
Grammar

[Spatt]

On 5/11/2020 at 4:24 PM, AP996 said:

Got around to pulling the top of the engine at the weekend, before the head came off I checked the standard cam timing, numbers I got were (with valve 1 mm open)

Exhaust cam, valves open at 37 degrees before BDC, closes at 5 degrees before TDC

Inlet cam, valves open at 5 degrees after TDC, closes at 35 degrees after BDC

been a long time since I did this sort of thing so if you think those numbers look wrong speak up">

checked squish clearance with solder and got 0.85 mm (34 thou) at tightest point, anybody out there willing to say how tight you can run these motors?

Only thinner head gasket I’ve seen advertised is the Spears racing one but that looks too thin at 10 thou.
 

those numbers look terrible.  

[AP996]

14 hours ago, Spatt said:

those numbers look terrible.  

Thanks for letting me know, want to tell me what they should be? What lobe centre timing should the stock cams be?

[Spatt]

4 minutes ago, AP996 said:

Thanks for letting me know, want to tell me what they should be? What lobe centre timing should the stock cams be?

It’s a baby cam.  I’ve never played with a them.  Your clearance reading I’m 100% sure are wrong also.  If you’re where you think you are with a stock cam you’d have a mile.  

[AP996]

42 minutes ago, Spatt said:

It’s a baby cam.  I’ve never played with a them.  Your clearance reading I’m 100% sure are wrong also.  If you’re where you think you are with a stock cam you’d have a mile.  

I think we have a misunderstanding, the clearance I quoted was the piston to head clearance not piston to valve. Maybe a UK/US difference in terminology, I’ve always understood squish clearance to be piston to head.

[Spatt]

1 hour ago, AP996 said:

I think we have a misunderstanding, the clearance I quoted was the piston to head clearance not piston to valve. Maybe a UK/US difference in terminology, I’ve always understood squish clearance to be piston to head.

Oh sorry I misread that.  I thought you had .034" PTV.  I would find the minimum number you're comfortable with on the intake and adjust on the dyno.  Just depends on what the goals are for the motor.  

[AP996]

Phew, glad we cleared that up, when someone like yourself says my figures are terrible l really started to doubt myself.

Goals with the motor are ideally somewhere between 80 and 85 hp without losing to much of the great mid range as it’s going to be used mainly on the road. It doesn’t matter too much as I,m just enjoying messing with an engine again after a 20 odd year gap and learning new things like ecu reflashing.
Just rediscovered Trackdays as well after not doing one since 2008, blew the dust off my old GSXR750Y for that though.

[Spatt]

5 hours ago, AP996 said:

Phew, glad we cleared that up, when someone like yourself says my figures are terrible l really started to doubt myself.

Goals with the motor are ideally somewhere between 80 and 85 hp without losing to much of the great mid range as it’s going to be used mainly on the road. It doesn’t matter too much as I,m just enjoying messing with an engine again after a 20 odd year gap and learning new things like ecu reflashing.
Just rediscovered Trackdays as well after not doing one since 2008, blew the dust off my old GSXR750Y for that though.

I’d advance the intake as tight as you’re willing to tolerate and play with exhaust to adjust the overlap.  I think you’re going to see it’s too far retarded and will be really soft.  Not sure just a guess. 

[AP996]

17 hours ago, Spatt said:

I’d advance the intake as tight as you’re willing to tolerate and play with exhaust to adjust the overlap.  I think you’re going to see it’s too far retarded and will be really soft.  Not sure just a guess. 

Thanks for the advice, Kent cams who reground the intake cam suggest lobe centre at 110 degrees ATDC which is about the same timing as stock so I’ll start there and see what I get.

Thanks again

 

[Joaoduarte]

So hows the project?

[AP996]

11 hours ago, Joaoduarte said:

So hows the project?

Hi, thanks for asking, been a busy year with work and household commitments so things have taken awhile but the engine is now finished and I swapped it over into my bike last weekend, engine changes are little awkward on our bikes with the suspension being mounted on the back of the motor so you can’t just have it on a paddock stand, I made a stand to mount on the rear foot rest mounts, it worked well and was really stable.

Ive started the engine and ran it for about 20 minutes, it sounds fine and no leaks so far, I kept the revs above 2000 rpm to give the new cam lobes some decent oil pressure.

I need to get a dry day to give it a proper run on the road and check all is ok but nothing but rain and a little snow here at the moment. If all goes well I hope to get it on the dyno as soon as I can but there’s not much chance of that with everything locked down due to the COVID situation over here at the moment.

Have posted a few pictures for interest.

 

 

 

[Joaoduarte]

Good!! Can you tell me a thing, i already bought an air box similar to yours (thank you a lot!) Do you think that adding a bored throttle bodies and tuning would give some more power, or if i dont work the engine head like you did the result would not worth it, i mean looking at the stock throttle bodies theres an heck of a bottleneck in there

[AP996]

21 minutes ago, Joaoduarte said:

Good!! Can you tell me a thing, i already bought an air box similar to yours (thank you a lot!) Do you think that adding a bored throttle bodies and tuning would give some more power, or if i dont work the engine head like you did the result would not worth it, i mean looking at the stock throttle bodies theres an heck of a bottleneck in there

I only tried the bored throttle bodies on the stock engine once just to check that they worked ok since being bored. I had always intended to run it like this on a dyno so that I could see if they made a difference with the stock engine but with the COVID situation it’s not been possible so I can’t really say if you would gain any power.

I only ran it on a local road for about 8 to 10 miles and I remember thinking that the motor felt  a bit more free revving but I hadn’t used it for about a month and it could have just been my imagination. Sorry I can’t give you a definitive answer.

[Voz Spoz]

Nice to see detailed engine work rather than just bolt on  I also love your adapted engine stand, nice!

I was searching around here for any post covering FZ07 cylinder head and found your post.

I am trying to understand the Yamaha service manual torque settings for the head bolts. It looks to me that I need to follow the torque order below up to 10NM then 40NM then back to 20NM, would you know if that is correct?

TIA

Cylinder head bolt ("1"–"6")

1st: 10 Nm (1.0 m·kgf, 7.2 ft·lbf)
2nd: 40 Nm (4.0 m·kgf, 29 ft·lbf)
*3rd: 20 Nm (2.0 m·kgf, 14 ft·lbf)

* Following the tightening order, loosen the bolt one by one, and then retighten it to the specific torque.

[AP996]

9 hours ago, Voz Spoz said:

Nice to see detailed engine work rather than just bolt on  I also love your adapted engine stand, nice!

I was searching around here for any post covering FZ07 cylinder head and found your post.

I am trying to understand the Yamaha service manual torque settings for the head bolts. It looks to me that I need to follow the torque order below up to 10NM then 40NM then back to 20NM, would you know if that is correct?

TIA

Cylinder head bolt ("1"–"6")

1st: 10 Nm (1.0 m·kgf, 7.2 ft·lbf)
2nd: 40 Nm (4.0 m·kgf, 29 ft·lbf)
*3rd: 20 Nm (2.0 m·kgf, 14 ft·lbf)

* Following the tightening order, loosen the bolt one by one, and then retighten it to the specific torque.

Thanks, the engine stand makes working on the motor much easier.

The cylinder head tightening sequence is correct except you have missed the last step which is after tightening to 20Nm you then have to tighten each bolt another 90 degrees (quarter of a turn)

Hope that helps.

[AP996]

We had a cold but dry day today so I took the bike for a short run on the road this afternoon, really cold and creasy roads with traffic  but the engine ran fine, not good conditions to try performance but I let it rev to about 10000 and no problems.

Dyno time next but no telling when that will be with COVID lock down

[Voz Spoz]

2 hours ago, AP996 said:

Thanks, the engine stand makes working on the motor much easier.

The cylinder head tightening sequence is correct except you have missed the last step which is after tightening to 20Nm you then have to tighten each bolt another 90 degrees (quarter of a turn)

Hope that helps.

Thanks so much, yes I now see the reference to 90 degrees in the service manual, easy to miss if you don't know what to look for

This is my first engine/head work.  I would normally have a shop do my work but I thought I would have a go.

I will tilt the engine forward, remove the cams and add the 90 deg to the head bolts. Thanks so much for your knowledge!

I also noted how difficult it was to get the throttle body back in, I put the TB on the head then tilted the engine back and could not get it to mate with the airbox, any tips on getting the TB back on? TIA

Edited January 22, 2021 by Voz Spoz