Dave Moss Tuning videos

[klx678]

On 5/31/2022 at 9:15 AM, bartman5impson said:

Not sure who to trust. A guy who has spent decades tuning thousands of bikes or some internet expert

A guy who doesn't point at one solution for all.   Seems like the whole thing should have been labeled "How to improve suspension without spending the kids' inheritance".    I think that video did more harm than good to Moss' reputation with a lot of good riders.  But I realize he has knowledge and more than a lot of "internet experts".   The trick is to figure out who actually are experts and to look deeper in Moss' abilities.  Then use what will work.  

I find if you dig enough I can find what has worked in numerous cases, that shows up consistently as a good action to take, not to jump on the first thing I find.   Kind of how I research news.   

Edited June 2, 2022 by klx678

[Yakko Warner]

On 5/2/2021 at 8:57 AM, shinyribs said:

Congrats, Dave. Your clickbait scare tactics are top notch.

 

In his defense I'm guessing it was Dave Moss's friend and frequent videographer, Dave Williams, who uploaded and titled the video.  That guess is made purely from watching his videos and seeing their personalities.  I'll further guess that the "fatal" aspect may refer to how soft the dampening is, making the forks bottom out hard when braking hard, such as emergency braking; thereby, unsettling the bike.  Full disclosure: I pay to watch Dave Moss videos.  Just my $0.02.

[shinyribs]

To each their own. I don't mean that in a flippant way.  We all just enjoy different things and that's cool.

Dave promotes and pushes ( WITH the help of his buddy) his suspension guru status. But he doesn't offer any suspension improvement services. Why would a suspension guru be unable to offer suspension work? 

Who here has sent forks to Dave for revalving? Has he rebuilt your shock? Did he take your info and help you order the correct spring rates from him? Show of hands? He offers no services other than pay to listen to him talk. 

Nobody that truly appreciates and understand suspension would recommend OEM FZ 07 shocks. He blew his credibility out of the water for me right then. That proves that he's either willing to make "fatal flaw" videos about a bike he's never ridden, or he simply just doesn't know what he's talking about.

Ktech, Stoltec, Ohlins and others can fix your suspension and answer legitimate questions. Dave will bounce your forks in the parking lot, send you home to cut spacers and ask for $20. All while talking fast and moving around quickly to appear busy actually doing something. 

 

 

But that's just my perspective. To each their own. 

[bartman5impson]

Just now, shinyribs said:

 But he doesn't offer any suspension improvement services. Why would a suspension guru be unable to offer suspension work?

He is a suspension tuner not a mechanic or a suspension manufacturer. He helps riders make use of what they have. If you wanted advice on how to set up your living room would you ask an interior designer or a carpenter?

Just now, shinyribs said:

Nobody that truly appreciates and understand suspension would recommend OEM FZ 07 shocks

If that's what you took out of his videos you weren't listening. He specifically says that a proper fully adjustable suspension  should ideally be installed. But the obvious advice of "spend $2000 on cartridges and a shock" is not very practical to many people.

Just now, shinyribs said:

Ktech, Stoltec, Ohlins and others can fix your suspension and answer legitimate questions. Dave will bounce your forks in the parking lot, send you home to cut spacers and ask for $20. All while talking fast and moving around quickly to appear busy actually doing something. 

No doubt they make great products, but unless someone has considered your riding style, conditions, concerns, etc., you might be riding around on $1000s worth of incorrectly set-up suspension. It would be like buying a set of Dunlop Q4s and running them at 45 psi. Sure you got fancy bling but you're not getting your money's worth. That's where Dave comes in. He looks at the bike, the rider, and listens to their feedback to make the bike they have handle how it should.

Edited June 4, 2022 by bartman5impson

[shinyribs]

Like I say, to each their own. I'm a nameless, faceless nobody on the internet. My opinion is worth what you pay for it. I'm self employed and understand marketing your skills. 

I don't know a ton about Dave Moss, but he's certainly polarizing. When he first started popping up everywhere I thought, " how have I never heard of this guy? Everyone seems super impressed by him". So I googled his accomplishments so I could get understand where he was coming from. All I could find was his website saying he was a suspension tuner on a mission to "save lives" ( familiar tactic?).

I mean, if Rossi starts putting on riding schools, we know he's legit. If Guy Martin starts a mechanic training school, I'd want to listen to the man talk. It's like Dave just got a free pass. He appeared and was simply accepted. That's odd in my eyes.

As I mentioned above, like me , Dave is marketing his skills. Is his skill suspension tuning? I dunno, but he's found himself a market regardless. 

My life is motorcycle-centric. I love the machines and I love the community. 99% of all riders I meet are just the friendliest, happiest people. Nobody is expected to give their skills to the community for free, but when someone appears to be fleecing the community it bothers me. But again, my opinion doesn't matter much, but I will speak out.  As with all things, time will sort the wheat from the chaff. If I have to eat crow, so be it. 

This is way more typing than I should be doing in a day. Back to my corner now

[GuybrushThreepwood]

This whole discussion has me confused. So much conflicting info. My bike recently hit 9k miles and I've never changed my fork oil. It's time to get that done, but what oil weight should I use? Should I do the spacer thing or not? Should I change my rear shock? I don't want to spend a ton of money right now and all the conflicting info is just making my head spin. 

 

I don't do track days. I'm not riding the dragon's tail anytime soon. Just a guy who likes to ride and have fun. So what should I do here? I bought some 20W oil per somebody recommendation but now I'm thinking that was a wrong move.

[Yakko Warner]

Just now, GuybrushThreepwood said:

what oil weight should I use? Should I do the spacer thing or not?

I bought some 20W oil per somebody recommendation but now I'm thinking that was a wrong move.

The 20W oil recommendation was likely to increase the fork damping.  You should feel the forks be stiffer and less bouncy.  If you are changing the oil yourself (it's pretty easy, you just have to pay attention to oil level), you might as well use it and see if you like it.  You will hopefully feel more in control if your forks are bouncing less, but you'll feel bumps more.

The spacer thing adjusts your sag, since the stock forks don't have preload adjusters.  If you like things the way they are, I'd suggest leaving them alone for now.  Suspension tuning is, to a large degree, personal preference.  You can always do these things later.

Just my $0.02.

[GuybrushThreepwood]

Just now, Yakko Warner said:

The 20W oil recommendation was likely to increase the fork damping.  You should feel the forks be stiffer and less bouncy.  If you are changing the oil yourself (it's pretty easy, you just have to pay attention to oil level), you might as well use it and see if you like it.  You will hopefully feel more in control if your forks are bouncing less, but you'll feel bumps more.

The spacer thing adjusts your sag, since the stock forks don't have preload adjusters.  If you like things the way they are, I'd suggest leaving them alone for now.  Suspension tuning is, to a large degree, personal preference.  You can always do these things later.

Just my $0.02.

So maybe I leave the spacers as is and just try the 20wt oil, see if I like it or not, if I don't, maybe try 15w, and if I don't like that, maybe I can try messing around with different sizes of PVC spacers?

[Yakko Warner]

The oil weight will affect the fork dampening, while the spacer length will affect your front sag; changing each will have different affects.  So it's probably good to start with only changing the oil weight to see how that changes your ride.  You can learn more about suspension setup in different ways.  There are books like "Total Control: High Performance Street Riding Techniques", and (non Dave Moss) videos like:

If you can understand how your forks work and what changing things (like oil weight and spacer length) will do, then you can experiment to get what you like.  Again, just my $0.02, so learn what works for you, and don't just listen to me.

[GuybrushThreepwood]

36 minutes ago, Yakko Warner said:

The oil weight will affect the fork dampening, while the spacer length will affect your front sag; changing each will have different affects.  So it's probably good to start with only changing the oil weight to see how that changes your ride.  You can learn more about suspension setup in different ways.  There are books like "Total Control: High Performance Street Riding Techniques", and (non Dave Moss) videos like:

If you can understand how your forks work and what changing things (like oil weight and spacer length) will do, then you can experiment to get what you like.  Again, just my $0.02, so learn what works for you, and don't just listen to me.

Of course. I've tried watching the Dave Moss videos but I don't really catch what he's putting out there, other than he's quickly rattling off numbers and pushing around on handlebars. I'll check out this other video though, maybe that'll make sense of it all.

 

Honestly, at the end of the day, my fork oil is old and needs changing. That's mostly what I'm concerned with. 

[Evill_Ed]

Just now, GuybrushThreepwood said:

Honestly, at the end of the day, my fork oil is old and needs changing. That's mostly what I'm concerned with. 

If you have been happy with the way your bike handles for the way you ride and your concern is the oil's age, I would suggest following the Factory replacement recommendations.

Use 10 wt oil. Each leg gets 403 cc's or you can measure level at 162 mm. If measuring from top, the distance from the oil level to the top of the fork tube is 162 mm. This is done with the spring out and the tube completely depressed. 

This gives you fresh oil and the fork characteristics should remain the same. 

Hope this helps.

Ed

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

Just now, Evill_Ed said:

If you have been happy with the way your bike handles for the way you ride and your concern is the oil's age, I would suggest following the Factory replacement recommendations.

Use 10 wt oil. Each leg gets 403 cc's or you can measure level at 162 mm. If measuring from top, the distance from the oil level to the top of the fork tube is 162 mm. This is done with the spring out and the tube completely depressed. 

This gives you fresh oil and the fork characteristics should remain the same. 

Hope this helps.

Ed

 

I mean, I don't love the suspension, and I would love to do a proper upgrade some day, but right now I just need to get it done and ridable. My ultimate goal is to swap to some Racetech emulators, but they're just not in the budget right at this moment. 

What I can swing is a couple bottles of fork oil and some PVC to play around with. I think I'll give that a shot for now.

[sweetscience]

Just now, GuybrushThreepwood said:

I mean, I don't love the suspension, and I would love to do a proper upgrade some day, but right now I just need to get it done and ridable. My ultimate goal is to swap to some Racetech emulators, but they're just not in the budget right at this moment. 

What I can swing is a couple bottles of fork oil and some PVC to play around with. I think I'll give that a shot for now.

Checking your sag values will give you a direction or idea of where to go with your suspension.  

[M. Hausknecht]

On 6/10/2022 at 11:37 PM, GuybrushThreepwood said:

I mean, I don't love the suspension, and I would love to do a proper upgrade some day, but right now I just need to get it done and ridable. My ultimate goal is to swap to some Racetech emulators, but they're just not in the budget right at this moment. 

What I can swing is a couple bottles of fork oil and some PVC to play around with. I think I'll give that a shot for now.

If you're able to articulate what you "don't love" about your suspension, folks here can make relevant suggestions at minimal expense. When I started riding I knew virtually nothing about motorcycle suspension, there was no internet or other readily available repository of expertise, so I just learned to ride around the significant limitations of my motorcycle's suspension (then a contemporary sport bike). That is still an option but there is good info now available to all; just not from everybody (the FB 07 and R7 groups, in particular, seem full of nonsense advice these days)

[00RAH]

 

[cornerslider]

Dave Moss just cracks me up  ..... If I ever need to learn how to properly "push" on my bike, Dave will be my go-to guy ... In the mean time, I'll spend a "minimal" amount if money on basic/inexpensive suspension upgrades, and have it set up properly by the local suspension tuner (that I bought the basic suspension components from)- for free .

I will never understand the "internet-attention" this clown gets? He makes a couple YouTube videos about a "fatal-flaw" that scares half the FZ/MT-07 riders into cutting new spacers for their forks..... REALLY???? Are people so gullible, to think this clown has some "secret-stuff" that somehow got past ALL the engineers at Yamaha/ALL the Lawyers that represent Yamaha/ALL the Accountants & Actuaries (bean counters) that work for Yamaha? If cutting a spacer by as little as 10mm made THAT much of a difference (on "bargain" OEM components), I would think it would have been addressed years ago? It hasn't-

Yamaha builds a good product, that meets a price point. If all I used my "07" for was commuting, I wouldn't upgrade, or even consider modifying the OEM suspension. For those that desire a little more, we can spend a little more, and get a "little more". It really doesn't need to be this complicated....

[ElGonzales]

My 2014 fork was always very soft, so if you braked hard it dived down a lot like at a 40 year old 50 ccm. I don't know how decreasing of spring preload by cutting the spacers should  improve this.
I switched to progressive Wilbers springs and the recommended oil and it was better, I was on a racetrack some days ago for a training day and it was perfect. But for riding in public the comfort is not so good now, it feels like to much of the road bumps reaches the handle bars.
Could it be an idea to  remove a little bit of fork oil to improve road comfort?

[M. Hausknecht]

Just now, ElGonzales said:

My 2014 fork was always very soft, so if you braked hard it dived down a lot like at a 40 year old 50 ccm. I don't know how decreasing of spring preload by cutting the spacers should  improve this.
I switched to progressive Wilbers springs and the recommended oil and it was better, I was on a racetrack some days ago for a training day and it was perfect. But for riding in public the comfort is not so good now, it feels like to much of the road bumps reaches the handle bars.
Could it be an idea to  remove a little bit of fork oil to improve road comfort?

Fork oil level changes only impact the action of the fork in the last 15-25mm of travel, so changing it isn't likely to do anything for you. I'm not a fan of progressive-wound springs. They tend to be too soft initially, and then too stiff once compressed further. Your discomfort on the street might be excessive fork compression damping, if you're now using heavier weight fork oil than stock. 

[SeanK]

On 4/12/2020 at 11:47 AM, shinyribs said:

 

In stock trim you can feel the bike rock forward under braking. It's easily misunderstood to be fork dive. It's not. The rebound damping in the rear shock is way too weak. What feels like fork dive is just the bike pitching forward due to the suspension unloading in the rear, causing the whole bike to tip forward. Nothing you do to forks can combat this. 

When the bike tips forward under hard braking is temporarily changes the steering geometry your body naturally adjusted to moments prior. So when you quickly approach a corner, jump on the brakes and the bike tips on it's nose you suddenly feel this change in geometry and your brain thinks the forks are wallowing or flexing, or some weird thing is happening. There is something weird happening, but it's not the forks. These forks are fairly stout and the stanchions have very little unneeded stickout. We aren't flexing these things. The forks aren't wallowing through their rebound/compression strokes or overworking the springs. It's just the bike tipping forward and instantly creating a new and unplanted feel. It feels nasty because it is, but it's all in the rear shock damping. 

Get a decent shock on the back and 90% of the stock fork issues are fixed. 

 

I'm new here,  I came here looking for answers. I have a 2016 FZ07 with about 6K miles. Nothing is leaking and seems to be in good condition. However the bike is just very unnerving in curves at speeds above say 35MPH. Whats explained in the above in bold is EXACTLY what I'm feeling.  I want to like this bike I don't want to sell it. But I have no confidence in it in curves because of what I'm feeling as described.  As a comparison,  I have a 2021 MT03 and its like its on rails. I had a 2013 Ninja 650 and it handled like it was on rails.  This FZ-07 does not.  

This gives me hope.  Any and all advice is appreciated.

[nozeitgeist1800]

35 minutes ago, SeanK said:

I'm new here,  I came here looking for answers. I have a 2016 FZ07 with about 6K miles. Nothing is leaking and seems to be in good condition. However the bike is just very unnerving in curves at speeds above say 35MPH. Whats explained in the above in bold is EXACTLY what I'm feeling.  I want to like this bike I don't want to sell it. But I have no confidence in it in curves because of what I'm feeling as described.  As a comparison,  I have a 2021 MT03 and its like its on rails. I had a 2013 Ninja 650 and it handled like it was on rails.  This FZ-07 does not.  

This gives me hope.  Any and all advice is appreciated.

i can absolutely confirm that replacing the rear shock makes a huge difference to how planted the bike feels in a turn. i tossed the ktech razor-r lite on mine, feels like im much more in control while jackassing about.