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ogri

Dave Moss Tuning videos

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ogri

I watched some videos on youtube by Dave Moss Tunning and seriously considering to check and address my suspension setup.

Yamaha FZ-07 / MT-07 Fatal Flaw and How To Fix It

How To Fix Yamaha FZ-07 / MT-07 Fork Problem

I bought my FZ brand new, bike was NOT adjusted by yamaha dealership for me (welcome to Florida). I do not know even what bike's suspension needs to be adjusted prior riding. It has about 30,000 mostly commuting miles now. At 22,000 miles left fork started to leak. Mechanic replaced seals in the both forks and put heavier fork oil.
I tried test suspension like Dave doing in his videos. I don't have crazy bouncing front like all FZ-07 he checked. Second test, after pumping bike down couple times he pulls it up (checking back and front). I have a little travel up in front suspension, but at the back no any free travel up at all when suspension is settled under bike's weight.

I ride in the flat-state and 99% of the time I am doing city commuting. Do I need to apply his fixes or just ride and "do not fix that is not broken"?

Dave suggests these fixes almost to every FZ-07 owner:
* to lift up front fork by 8mm in the triple clamp. He says FZ-07 front forks are hight to the moon.
* to shorten front spring spacer by 10mm
* use thinker oil (my bike-shop done this already).

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FNGFZ07Rider

I think there’s another thread about this.   Here’s my take,  the front is soft for my weight (170lbs 185-190lbs) with commuting gear/ back pack.  I mainly commute and do spirited rides on the weekends.  I shortened the front spacer 10mm and replaced the oil to 15w Belray.   The front doesn’t dive as harsh and dampens allot better.  So this budget fix does work for my needs.  

I think you did the the most important thing.  That was to get thicker fork oil up it to better dampen the front end.

I also just ordered a Ktech Razor R LITE.  Just because.

Edited by FNGFZ07Rider

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IanC

I did each of these from that video - here is what I can say about it:

  • Lowering the triple clamp 8mm
    • I lowered mine 10mm. I didn't think it would make a big difference but it does. The bike turns in noticeably faster. Apparently this comes at the cost of high speed stability, but it feels fine to me at speed. Absolutely recommend as it makes a big difference and the price is oh so right.
  • Shorten the front spacer:
    • I don't know if this one makes a big difference or not. I did it, but then ended up winding down my preload adjuster as I thught it looked like too much dead space up top. Give it a shot. Worst case you pickup 2ft of thinwall tubing for $10 and make a bunch of sizes to try out.
  • Thicker oil:
    • Definitely an improvement. I didn't have access to the BelRay 15W...my local shop had Motul 10W so I tried that. I'm really happy with the reduced nose diving...there is still not enough damping up there in rebound though so i'm going to go ahead and swap the oil again with the BelRay 15W to see what it does.

This stuff is all dirt cheap to do (if you DIY) so I'd say experiment and see what you like.

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ogri

In the first video, Dave said that rear shock lasts about 6000 miles. My bike has already 30,000 miles so it seems like I have to replace rear shocks 5 times already...

According manual it is not serviceable and has nitrogen under pressure inside, how often do you change rear shocks on FZ-07?

Edited by ogri
punctuation

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IanC

I'm not sure I believe the shock has a lifespan of 6000mi - that sounds a bit ridiculous.

I wouldn't consider changing it unless the performance degrades noticeably.

I suppose he is referring to the fact that you can't change the oil?

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Spatt
2 hours ago, IanC said:

I'm not sure I believe the shock has a lifespan of 6000mi - that sounds a bit ridiculous.

I wouldn't consider changing it unless the performance degrades noticeably.

I suppose he is referring to the fact that you can't change the oil?

I mean we service the shocks and forks every season with maybe 3000 miles.  It gets pretty gross and contaminated.


Get your MT07 & FZ07 racing parts at https://www.robemengineering.com/fz-07-products

 

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IanC

Agreed. I just can’t believe any manufacturer in their right mind would create an unserviceable shock with a service life of what is essentially a year, maybe 2. 

What does the manual say? I haven’t checked but I don’t remember seeing anything like that in there. 

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twf

It will last long time on street bike. Even tough it is not serviceable it can be serviced but there is no point spending money on it. 

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D.A.

The factory service manual says to check the rear shock every 6000 miles (10,000 km) for proper operation and to replace if it is damaged or leaking. The manual also says to lubricate the shock’s relay arm and connecting arm pivoting points every 12,000 miles (20,000 km), which suggests Yamaha thinks their OEM shock will last a lot longer that 6,000 miles. 

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Bigturbomax

So i can't comment to raising forks in tree and cutting down preload spacer. But i can speak to the oil briefly. Im at 17k miles and changed the oil in my front forks at 12k. Stock we all know the front end wallows...BAD. when i did the tap the brake style rebound test i would get 3 to 5 full cycles in the front end all stock even when bike was new. Always hated that. During for oil change i used belray 15W. If i repeat the same test now i get 2 cycles from the front end and it still isnt any harsher on sharp or high speed compression that i can tell. I was already tempted to try belray 20w at next change to see if it settles the front end the rest of the way. So seeing what 15W did with my otherwise stock front end, 20w doesn't sound to far off the mark to me. If i can get my hands on some stock R3 dampers ill run those with 15W. I think for me, R3 dampers, 15w and proper sag is the 70% option. As it stands im reasonably happy with the front end just with 15w and the updated 2018 rear shock. 

Hope some of this helps someone else. 

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cornerslider

Dave Moss does NOT "walk on water".... PLEASE stop throwing any amount of money at the OEM suspension...... Yamaha does NOT actually build the suspension for our beloved bikes. They outsource it to the "lowest-bidder". That lowest bidder is trying to be competitive, and wants to make a profit. If they can make a suspension that even closely resembles the specs that Yamaha wants, they will most likely "win" the bid. If they can cut-corners, they most likely will- (more profit).... Yamaha doesn't have a big window with an "entry-level" bike. If you truly want a better suspension, you need to spend more money. You can either buy a higher-end bike, or upgrade the suspension of our "lower-end" FZ/MT-07 platform.... Cutting 10mm out of a spacer in the front end might be "free", but will not likely give you the improvements you are looking for. As for the rear, the lack of adjustability is nearly equal to it's lack of serviceability.... It's an "entry level" bike, and there's just not a lot of "wiggle room" for a nicer suspension. On a positive note, there are many cost-effective solutions to upgrading the suspension that won't break the bank-

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""W.O.T. until you see god, then brake"

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klx678
On 4/6/2020 at 9:05 PM, IanC said:

Agreed. I just can’t believe any manufacturer in their right mind would create an unserviceable shock with a service life of what is essentially a year, maybe 2. 

What does the manual say? I haven’t checked but I don’t remember seeing anything like that in there. 

Where have you been for the past 50 years?   It wasn't until some serious MX bikes came out, that adjustable rebuildable shocks came around.  That was the late 70s with the single shock suspension, it was also when some damping adjustment came out for the forks.  Some European shocks were rebuildable, like Betor and Koni, but very few Japanese.   It wasn't until some serious sport models came out that this showed up on street bikes to any extent.    So it is still common on lower priced bikes that the shock is essentially sealed and not serviceable for the most part.   

Heck some of the smaller cruiser shocks were jokingly referred to as screen door closers, because the damping was so near non-existent.  It wasn't unusual to find bikes with totally non-functional rear shocks, just pogo sticks.   The stuff you get now, even if non-serviceable, is far better than the 70s and 80s.  

As for lasting 3000 miles, maybe for hard riding, but probably reasonable for a lot of riders.  My 650 dual sport is running the OEM sealed shock at 50,000 miles and still tolerable.   I'm sure I'd be really pleased if I'd ever get that DRz shock on the shelf put on the bike though.  And maybe next year I may grab a shock for the XSR.  Who knows...

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IanC
2 hours ago, klx678 said:

Where have you been for the past 50 years?

I've only been alive for 40 - and I definitely wasn't riding back then! 

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  • Haha 2

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klx678

😀  So now you know the rest of the story...    And the majority of bikes still have sealed shocks.     Like they said, the bid goes to the lowest bidder.   Of course you could put a darn good Ohlins on the back of an MT and still save up to several grand off the cost of a Ducati.  Probably the forks and Brembos too and still save a couple grand.   

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Bigturbomax

Dropped tree today. Set forks 8mm above tree. Will put about 60 mixed miles tomorrow and will note changes. I know alot of us only want a tiny bit less pogo. I will always try the simple stuff before throwing measurable bucks at it. My $60 2018 rear shock from ebay improved the rear to the point i dont need to do anything else to the back for my fun/commuting needs. I did the same (except 10mm) to my sr250 years ago with lower bars and made a nice noticeable difference. 

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InsaneDawe

I dropped the forks 8mm this last weekend and have done about 100 or more miles.It was a noticeable upgrade. My bike turns in quicker and it helped shift my weight over the forks keeping the front wheel down and more stable. I believe I hit 100 mph and it still felt stable but I wasn't doing it for extended periods. Seems like a win too me.

 

Instead of just cutting a bunch of spacers, pick up a set of cheap preload adjusters and cut the spacers to accommodate the adjusters. 

 

Fork oil viscosity makes a difference but  you can always add a bit more oil if you want to stiffen the front up even more.

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le druide
On 4/6/2020 at 12:03 PM, IanC said:

 

  • Shorten the front spacer:
    • I don't know if this one makes a big difference or not. I did it, but then ended up winding down my preload adjuster as I thught it looked like too much dead space up top. Give it a shot. Worst case you pickup 2ft of thinwall tubing for $10 and make a bunch of sizes to try out.

PVC pipe one inch diameter works fine ,sold in 10 feet long so you can make a lot of test and easy to cut !

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shinyribs
On 4/8/2020 at 1:51 AM, cornerslider said:

Dave Moss does NOT "walk on water".... PLEASE stop throwing any amount of money at the OEM suspension......

THIS^^^

Dave says so many things to contradict himself that I can't figure out why his comments are regarded as gospel. 

s-l200.jpg

 

 

The forks are basic, but they are fine. There is NO dangerous damping activity at all. I have tried running different grades of fork oil from 5w to 15w and everything in between. All the thicker oil gives you is harshness on compression. The damping circuit in the forks is so crude ( but perfectly reliable ) that's there's nothing you can do to really tune anything. 

-Heavy oil will give harsh feel and slighty slower rebound

-Thin oil will feel comfy, but allow fast rebound.

If you want any decent action out of the forks then something along the lines of Racetechs emulators is the ONLY way get any type of results. And if you aren't measuring and fully understanding sag measurements, then chopping up stuff in the forks won't give you good results. Do some research on static vs race sag ( aka: unladed vs laden sag ) and wrap your head around why there are two different reference points, and how people use them to determine what spring rate is needed. After that makes sense, go measure the sag numbers on the stock forks. You will quickly see that the stock fork setup doesn't align well with conventional thinking. I have a theory on this, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that it works.  

In stock trim you can feel the bike rock forward under braking. It's easily misunderstood to be fork dive. It's not. The rebound damping in the rear shock is way too weak. What feels like fork dive is just the bike pitching forward due to the suspension unloading in the rear, causing the whole bike to tip forward. Nothing you do to forks can combat this. 

When the bike tips forward under hard braking is temporarily changes the steering geometry your body naturally adjusted to moments prior. So when you quickly approach a corner, jump on the brakes and the bike tips on it's nose you suddenly feel this change in geometry and your brain thinks the forks are wallowing or flexing, or some weird thing is happening. There is something weird happening, but it's not the forks. These forks are fairly stout and the stanchions have very little unneeded stickout. We aren't flexing these things. The forks aren't wallowing through their rebound/compression strokes or overworking the springs. It's just the bike tipping forward and instantly creating a new and unplanted feel. It feels nasty because it is, but it's all in the rear shock damping. 

Get a decent shock on the back and 90% of the stock fork issues are fixed. 

 A year ago the internet was making it's typical, predictable remarks about fork springs. "Too soft! Sprung for 140lb Japanese teenagers". Everyone was running out buying fork caps with preload spacers and heavier springs. Now, Dave Moss did a video and everyone wants to now do the opposite. 

What exactly are YOU feeling on YOUR bike that YOU don't like? Forget about popular opinion. 

The only modification I have made to my forks is the location of the stock washer. In stock trim there is a steel washer between the fork spring and the spacer, then the soft aluminum fork cap rides directly on the thin, steel spacer. The thin steel spacer tube chews on the fork cap and send aluminum shavings through the forks, which will absolutely wreck the bushings in short order.  Run the washer between the spacer and the fork cap to protect the cap from gouging. You don't need a washer between the steel spacer and the steel springs. They don't gall each other and the fit is good enough the the spacer is not gonna slip off the spring. I saw this at 600 miles and the inside of my forks were FILTHY! Completely disassembled the fork for cleaning and found slivers of aluminum EVERYWHERE. Already had some slight scratches on the bushings, luckily it was caught early. 20k miles later, with the fork caps not being chewed up, and my bushing are still perfectly serviceable and my fork oil isn't black from aluminum oxides when I change it annually. It comes out the same color as it went in.

 

 

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RobZilla

I found learning to use the rear brake just slightly before the front brake before entering a turn greatly effects the nose dive when getting on the front brakes. It gives me much more control and a much more planted feeling. This is where learning and practice makes a big difference in riding the bike.  Learning to use what you have to make it work for you. 
In any event, I’ll be upgrading the rear shock before the front. 
To me, the Dave moss video is backwards and what he recommends will make the front fork even softer. I added a preload adjuster to try to firm up the front a bit without removing the forks to change the oil. What he recommends is basically moving the spring in the opposite direction from how I’m moving it now, with preload. I don’t think cutting the spacer would work for me.

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blackout

I like Dave Moss, but he was late to the game.  Funny how so many think he was the first to know what was needed for our bikes.  This forum has had all the different options for suspension upgrades and modifications for years!

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Craig Mapstone
Upstate New York

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ogri

I did some theory preparations and measurements today.

Recommended is Race Sag is 30-40mm (lets assume 35-40 mm, for normal street use)

I used setyoursag online calculator

  • Front fully extended 139 mm
  • Front under bike wight 120 mm
  • Front under rider weight 117 mm

Front Static is 19 mm, Race Sag is 22 mm (difference is 3 mm)

  • Rear fully extended 355 mm
  • Rear under bike wight 330 mm
  • Rear under rider weight 305 mm

Rear Static is 25 mm, Race Sag is 50 mm

It seems, my suspension is completely messed up. I can add one or more clicks to the rear preload to re-balance bike a little bit,  but front 3 mm under my weight it is something ridiculous.  

Will cut spacer make the front of the bike even more stiff or softer? Do I have to buy proper springs? how to choice them? 

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twf

Cutting spacer does not make it softer or stiffer, it just adds free sag.

Spring rate changes stiffness 

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mjh937

What @shinyribs says about the rear shock is spot on.  I replaced my shock before I upgraded my forks and I was amazed how much better the stock front end felt with a decent shock on the back.

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klx678

I think in the video he commented that, in lieu of spending the big bucks on a shock, a rider could just pick up another stock low mileage shock to replace a worn out one if money was an issue.  Not that they were as good or superior to the aftermarket ones.  

I also get that cutting the spacer reduces preload allowing correct sag for some riders, like that woman.  Not that it was the best way to go.

Plus probably 90% of the riders who might do that wouldn't enormously benefit from $1200 worth of trick suspension.  They would feel the difference, but it probably wouldn't want to spend that kind of money, so why not do what can be done with what is there.

But then that is what I got from it when I watched it.   

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le druide
11 hours ago, klx678 said:

I think in the video he commented that, in lieu of spending the big bucks on a shock, a rider could just pick up another stock low mileage shock to replace a worn out one if money was an issue.  Not that they were as good or superior to the aftermarket ones.  

I also get that cutting the spacer reduces preload allowing correct sag for some riders, like that woman.  Not that it was the best way to go.

Plus probably 90% of the riders who might do that wouldn't enormously benefit from $1200 worth of trick suspension.  They would feel the difference, but it probably wouldn't want to spend that kind of money, so why not do what can be done with what is there.

But then that is what I got from it when I watched it.   

 

+1.      That's what I understood too.

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