Power loss on Eco Mode only !!

[Groflan]

Hi every body,

Since I tampered with my turn signals (short circuit, I changed fuze), I lost power at low rpm. On my motorcycle, the ECO mode disappears at 4000 rpm

The engine is unpleasant and rough on this phase, I have the impression that I lost a cylinder. The engine knocks. Then, after 4000rpm, it works almost normally

So I changed lots of parts:

- New sparkplug + new coils

- Filters and oil

- Entire body throttle

- New O2 sensor

- New temperature sensor

- New tressure sensor

- News TPS..

But absolutely no change. No fault code. The Yamaha technician says there is no problem.

I passed the bike on dyno, and that confirm it lacks torque à low rpm

My bike is completely stock.

Thank fort your help.

[ElGonzales]

Wild guessing:

Maybe still a short circuit somewhere, a little contact of +12V to the frame / ground? Is the new fuse the correct one with the correct current rating? 
If not, maybe at some frequencies of vibration this makes a problem like a voltage drop instead of a burned fuse.
I once had this, caused by a tiny damage in the isolation of a cable witch was routed through the frame.

It's the job of the technician to find the problem if it's really there

[Groflan]

Thanks for your repli

I'm thinking about changing the compelte harness fo the bike, but it's a huge job.

The fuse is the same, et it's concerns turn signals only. I do not undestand.

 

 

 

[ElGonzales]

Yeah it's just 12V from Battery - Main Switch - Turn Signal relay - Turn Signal Switch - the lights - Ground     
At least if you measure the battery voltage while you rev the motor between idle rpm and ...6000 rpm you should see the normal charging voltage or if there is some kind of strange power supply problem.
You already did a lot of stuff, so i think the easy things like throttle body synchronization are already done.

 

One more idea:
In Europe we have this big round intake air valve on top of the air filter case , controlled by the vacuum line and the intake solenoid. I think this valve should open the airbox for more intake air around 4000-4500 rpm.  Maybe it is always open or not working correctly / mechanically stuck -> -> motor running very lean at low rpm?  Checking of the vacuum lines or the involved solenoid can't be wrong.

If you have the service manual, Page 2-63 , item #11.

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by ElGonzales

[sansnombre]

@Groflan

I don't think you should consider changing your harness - that doesn't follow from the experience and history you describe. Also, the short, if present, would also affect non-eco mode.

Interesting point above about the airbox cover. Might be something to it, esp if this is related to eco mode.

Q1: are you absolutely certain that the problem started immediately after you changed that fuse? This is critical.

Q2: are you absolutely certain that the problem is on/off and tracks the eco mode, or does it just seem like it's close to each other, at similar rpm?

Q3: besides the info you supply above, the bike is otherwise absolutely stock? Any recent changes - any?

Q4: when you ran it on the dyno, did the higher rpm numbers look normal, or could they be reduced as well? Can you post that dyno trace?

My advise is to wait a day or two and see what advise you get off of this forum - there are some people here who know more about this bike/engine then the Yamaha techs do, and can give you outstanding info on this eco mode and what it does and does not do and if it's possibly related to the issue - it might not be, it could just be low-rpm or low-throttle operation that seems to show cause/effect, but they could just be tracking each other. They'll give you some great advise and likely id the culprit.

I'm pretty sure one of the guys will point you in the right direction soon. Hang tight.

[klx678]

I have no idea what failings you find in the performance.  It is ECO mode, which means it is cutting power to maximize fuel efficiency.  My only experience with that is in the wife's Honda Civic 1500 turbo.   The ECO mode pretty much "kills" the power for the most part.  Acceleration is mediocre when accelerating, far less power than expected for normal, but that is ECO mode for the Civic.   If the tech tested the bike they should know if it is running ECO mode properly.  

Of course, not being there and riding the bike, I may not have a clue what so ever.  Please realize that.

How does it run in the other modes?   

Edited March 1, 2020 by klx678

[Groflan]

1 hour ago, sansnombre said:

@Groflan

I don't think you should consider changing your harness - that doesn't follow from the experience and history you describe. Also, the short, if present, would also affect non-eco mode.

Interesting point above about the airbox cover. Might be something to it, esp if this is related to eco mode.

Q1: are you absolutely certain that the problem started immediately after you changed that fuse? This is critical.

Q2: are you absolutely certain that the problem is on/off and tracks the eco mode, or does it just seem like it's close to each other, at similar rpm?

Q3: besides the info you supply above, the bike is otherwise absolutely stock? Any recent changes - any?

Q4: when you ran it on the dyno, did the higher rpm numbers look normal, or could they be reduced as well? Can you post that dyno trace?

My advise is to wait a day or two and see what advise you get off of this forum - there are some people here who know more about this bike/engine then the Yamaha techs do, and can give you outstanding info on this eco mode and what it does and does not do and if it's possibly related to the issue - it might not be, it could just be low-rpm or low-throttle operation that seems to show cause/effect, but they could just be tracking each other. They'll give you some great advise and likely id the culprit.

I'm pretty sure one of the guys will point you in the right direction soon. Hang tight.

Q1: I'm not certain.. it happened simultaneously.. one thing i'm certain, that is the bike had huge torque at low RPM

Q2: it's seems engine workds fine after 4000 rpm..

Q3: absolutely stock ! It has 6000 milles.. witht stock exausht stock, but only "Led + turn signal yamaha OEM" witch i remove

Q4: On the Dyno, it lost 2 horses power over the entire rpm range.. Compared to all the motorcycles passed before. And i lost the dyno trace..

 

Thnks for your repli

Edited March 1, 2020 by Groflan
error

[Groflan]

1 hour ago, klx678 said:

I have no idea what failings you find in the performance.  It is ECO mode, which means it is cutting power to maximize fuel efficiency.  My only experience with that is in the wife's Honda Civic 1500 turbo.   The ECO mode pretty much "kills" the power for the most part.  Acceleration is mediocre when accelerating, far less power than expected for normal, but that is ECO mode for the Civic.   If the tech tested the bike they should know if it is running ECO mode properly.  

Of course, not being there and riding the bike, I may not have a clue what so ever.  Please realize that.

How does it run in the other modes?   

On the other modes, that works fine, but it's hard to describe. On this bike, there was huge torque à very low RPM. On this bike, it means only the économie sum up in low RPM engine.

[Groflan]

1 hour ago, sansnombre said:

@Groflan

 

Interesting point above about the airbox cover. Might be something to it, esp if this is related to eco mode.

 

Hum, in France, after 2017, the airbox cover is is replaced by basic cover, like that :

 

[klx678]

I guess what I am saying is do you expect ECO mode to perform like the other modes?

If you do, you have the wrong idea of what ECO mode is.  ECO mode will cut engine performance to maintain an economic mode of performance to help maximize the use of fuel.   

To put it in blunt wording - the ECU will reduce performance to get better kpl ( or mpg) in spite of what your right wrist is trying to do. 

That is demonstrated by the fact that the bike runs great in the other modes.  If you do not like it, do not run ECO mode.

Edited March 1, 2020 by klx678

[Groflan]

In fact, ECO mode is only basic low/hight RRM engin.. nothing else.

My bike really has a problem. I seen it on dyno .

I felt it clearly. Today, it is unpleasant to drive at low speed.

I also think of the ECU which can be defective..

 

 

[klx678]

So take it to another Yamaha dealership and have them check it out or have someone who has ridden or rides an FZ or MT07 that can compare it to their bike.   Maybe a dealer would put you on a bike to see what they do.

I'd think if something was not right they would tell you.  After all they don't make money unless they do work and if your bike needs work, warranty or otherwise, they would certainly tell you and want to do it for you.  They'd be fools if they didn't.

But you can keep spending money possibly without  any results.  When I worked in a shop I saw a guy spend hundreds of dollars on electrical parts (not returnable) and other parts, instead of spending $45 to have it checked out by some really good mechanics with actual diagnostic equipment and a phone number for the manufacturer service department.  I don't know if he ever did get it fixed.

Or do what I'd do - not use ECO mode.   If my bike had ECO mode I still wouldn't know how it works since I wouldn't use it.  My right wrist can do the same job without pressing any buttons.  Fact is that is what I have to do since I have the XSR700 which has one mode - 68 horsepower, control it myself.

Edited March 2, 2020 by klx678

[norcal616]

This seems like a head scratcher:

First of all, why all new TB, engine sensors, TPS??  If nothing was wrong before the problems, the problem lies with your work on replacing the parts... 

Have you turned the motor over by hand to listen for any bad noises? 

Compression test?

Have you hooked up a PVC to the bike after the ECU was flashed? 

 

To me it seems like 2 different fuel maps are fighting each other or all the new stuff was not calibrated after installing.. 

[shinyribs]

Rough idle +knocking is likely to be a vacuum leak. The rough idle would be a result of the vacuum effectively making the bike run like it's way out of synch. The knock would be a result of the vacuum leak allowing unmetered fuel ( meaning the fuel injection isn't adding fuel to compensate) in and creating a lean knock. 

 

That's just a theory based on symptoms, but it'd be very simple, and free (!), to check the vac plugs where you synch the throttle bodies.

 

Also, ECO made does not cut power or change any parameters whatsoever. It's just a little icon that pops up on the dash to tell you that you are riding economically. Lots of these things get their signal to operate from the vacuum signal of the engine.  Throttle position compared to vacuum present is a great indicator of how much load the engine is under.

[klx678]

Ooooooh...  I thought it was another of the maps for economical operation, like the Civic.  Push a button and all is cut back.  Electronic setting like Sport and Rain, whatever, like the MT09.

I'd still spend the money at some place with enough expertise to figure it out rather than parts change until it suddenly is gone.  One could spend thousands.   Just seen it too many times where hundreds are spent without results, swapping parts without knowledge of what does what and why.  

[kylerhsm]

19 hours ago, shinyribs said:

Also, ECO made does not cut power or change any parameters whatsoever. It's just a little icon that pops up on the dash to tell you that you are riding economically. Lots of these things get their signal to operate from the vacuum signal of the engine.  Throttle position compared to vacuum present is a great indicator of how much load the engine is under.

Exactly this. ECO mode IS NOT AN ECO MODE. It's just a light that appears when you're gently cruising to let you know you're fuel consumption is low. I think you have bigger issues here and I don't see how anyone other than a Yamaha tech is going to be able to fix it.

[Groflan]

Thanks everybody for your repli

it's a nightmare. today, I checked everything, vac plugs, etc.. I do not find anything.

I wanted to clarify that it’s not my slow motion that is rough, but the low rpm, 1500 -> 4000 rpm... 

Today, I put a new air filter because the old one was quite dirty .. and I have the impression that I have even less acceleration. 

it brings me even more to the idea that there is a fuel quantity problem

Or defective écu

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Groflan]

On 3/2/2020 at 2:06 AM, norcal616 said:

This seems like a head scratcher:

First of all, why all new TB, engine sensors, TPS??  If nothing was wrong before the problems, the problem lies with your work on replacing the parts... 

Have you turned the motor over by hand to listen for any bad noises? 

Compression test?

Have you hooked up a PVC to the bike after the ECU was flashed? 

 

To me it seems like 2 different fuel maps are fighting each other or all the new stuff was not calibrated after installing.. 

I dont understand 

I changed all thats part ro repair my  bike. My ECU had nerver been flasched 

For compression test, indeed, i did not take the test. But, when I downshift, I have a hell of a motor brake on 2 or 3,

 

 

[klx678]

So, what you are finally saying is that your bike runs bad between 1500-4000 rpm, no matter what gear or speed.   No eco crap and other stuff that means nothing.  

Like I said, you have problems that you will spend a bundle on, because you do not know what to look for.  I take it for granted a good Yamaha dealership can test EFI, ECU, and any number of other possible problem areas.   Find a good dealer, get a good job of testing done.  Sounds like you've already spent enough money to have done this and possibly have fixed it.

Edited March 3, 2020 by klx678

[cornerslider]

If I remember correctly, I believe there's a small rubber cap that covers one of the vacuum ports on the throttle bodies. I'm talking about the one that gets used to sync the the throttle bodies. If that rubber cap is missing, this could be the problem. I secured mine with safety wire-

You didn't mention if you have a PCV installed? A couple years ago, Dynojet did away with a thing called the "oxygen optimizer". It's a small electronic "box" that sits just behind the battery, and plugs into the O2 sensor wiring harness. If you have that, and it were to fail, it may cause an issue? You can't buy a PCV with the "oxygen optimizer" anymore... If you have a PCV installed, maybe remove it and see if that changes anything.

Other than that, I'd suggest looking for a REALLY good shop to diagnose the problem. Sometimes paying for a really good technician can be easier than throwing money at parts. I'd bet that it's something really small/simple that is causing your problems. Based on my understanding, your bike still comes alive after 4,000 RPM? If it was something that was a major mechanical failure, it would probably get worse at higher RPM. Good luck-

[norcal616]

3 hours ago, Groflan said:

I dont understand 

I changed all thats part ro repair my  bike. My ECU had nerver been flasched 

For compression test, indeed, i did not take the test. But, when I downshift, I have a hell of a motor brake on 2 or 3,

 

 

I'm asking why did you need to replace all the parts such as throttle bodies, engine sensors, etc???  Was the bike flooded underwater due to nature or fire damage, etc that caused you to replace the parts??

I am asking because I wonder if the bike was running okay prior to to having problems with a small electrical job...

I dont see how messing with turn signals effects engine operation unless you really cooked the wiring harness and melted a few wires together..

[Groflan]

On 3/4/2020 at 2:17 AM, norcal616 said:

I'm asking why did you need to replace all the parts such as throttle bodies, engine sensors, etc???  Was the bike flooded underwater due to nature or fire damage, etc that caused you to replace the parts??

 

Sorry for not understanding everything in your language

Because I was convinced that this was the cause of my problem

Today, i bought ECU restricted (35W) of damaged 2019 FZ07. I installed it on the bike, and did a test. No change. There is good power at high revs, but low revs are the same.

 

[Mechie]

There was mention of the o2 sensor being changed. 
 

sure it is the right one? Preferably not a Chinese eBay one. 
 

I don’t know how the ecu on the fz work but on other things I’ve dealt with. 
 

Low rpm and “eco” mode are running closed loop. Reading from o2 and fueling based on it.
 

After you get into the throttle it switches to open loop. Fuels from the fuel tables. 
 

if o2 is bad it could be dumping fuel in it. Would cause a misfire. 
 

Does the exhaust smell strong like gas? 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Mechie

[geophb]

21 hours ago, Mechie said:

Low rpm and “eco” mode are running closed loop.

On the Fz/mt07 eco mode has nothing to do with closed loop. It is just a light that comes up when certain rpm and throttle input conditions are met.  Does absolutely nothing and means absolutely nothing. 

To the OP, if power clears up in the higher rpm range its probably not the fuel pump. Its hard to remote diagnose something, so I recommend the basics.

1) You replaced spark plugs? Make sure plug wells are clean too.

2) Throttle sensor synced properly when you replaced?

3) Manifold pressure sensor working? I believe there is a hose to the throttle bodies from the map sensor. Is the hose clean and  attached?

4) Make sure all electrical connections are good. Make sure battery is charged fully. Make sure all grounds are clean and have good continuity. 

5) Double check for vacuum leaks.

Throwing parts at it randomly get expensive quick. 

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by geophb

[topazsparrow]

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it yet, but 4000 RPM is right around when the stator starts pumping out enough juice to charge the battery.

Have you tried a different battery at all?