No Limit Engine Build

[FrodoFZ]

 

 

Hey guys!

I figured this would be the best place (feel free to let me know otherwise) for CP2 engine building tips 'n tricks to be found, so this is what I've got brewing:

The goal for my engine is to get at least 100 wheel ponies while maintaining a good bit of reliability. I know using top shelf components will help achieve that goal, but there's just a few things I haven't been able to turn up much info on.

The crank and some other rotating parts are going to be sent off to Marine Crank Inc. for some lightening and balancing (and maybe some further friction reduction), and Im going to weld the drive gear to the crank (AP has noted that as a point of failure in his engine builds). I've contacted World Wide Bearings to see what options they have (if any) for ceramic crank and transmission bearings, and if they are indeed true ceramic bearings or just ceramic-coated steel ball bearings (just waiting for a reply). Im also entertaining the idea of sending a few of the engine's other rotating pieces off for the MicroBlue treatment. Less friction and less rotating mass can never be a bad thing in the pursuit of power .

The transmission is going to get cut and shimmed, along with some friction reduction. A Suter slipper clutch will assist in transferring power to the countershaft sprocket.

Im going to run CP-Carrillo H-beam rods. I was entertaining the idea of having the cylinders decked and bored to accept the 83mm over-bore pistons CP has worked in conjunction with Spears Racing to develop for a 742cc engine, but I haven't found much, if any info, on that being a viable option for a reliable power increase (other than some of the Yamaha dirt trackers testing factory-backed 750 twins not too long ago). If any one knows anything about "big bore" FZ's out there, please share! At this point I'm more curious than anything about an FZ750. As of now I'm 99.9% sure that I'm just going to run a set of 13:1 pistons from CP along with a decked cylinder(s).

As for the cylinder head, I'm going to have it ported (maybe a dimpled port job if there's very little to no cost increase compared to a non-dimpled port). Web cams are going to handle the engine's inhaling and exhaling. Valve-wise, there are a few options that I'm considering, but haven't gathered enough information on. The only aftermarket valves I've been able to come across are a titanium set from Vance and Hines. I'm not super knowledgable on V&H products so feel free to spill the beans if you are. Another option I've been considering is going +1 on the intake side of things, but 1) I haven't found any +1 options out there for intake valves, and 2) if going +1 is in fact a viable option, what is the likelihood of running into valve shrouding? and 3) if V&H AND going +1 AREN'T viable options, does anyone have any recommendations on who to use for a custom set of titanium valves and the accompanying hardware needed for a major valve train upgrade (Kibblewhite, Ferrea, etc)?

The throttle bodies are going to be bored out, and will be mated with a pair of custom-made velocity stacks.

A full 2-1-2 custom-made (by me ) titanium exhaust is going to be directing the exhaust gasses out of the cylinders.

I'm strongly considering the FTECU Active Tune closed-loop system along with a dyno trip(s) to get and keep the engine running optimally. Does anybody have any positives or negatives they would like to share about this setup? Or any alternative recommendations on fuel/engine management?

I believe I've covered most if not all of my thoughts and plans on this engine build. I'm searching for as much info as possible so I can make as many informed decisions as possible as this project progresses. Please feel free to share your thoughts and/or suggestions! Keep in mind that this engine is NOT going to be subject to restrictions of any kind, which is why I'm going balls deep! Its really for no other reason than having the pure satisfaction of uncovering what the FZ is truly capable of (within the realms of certain reliability!) 

Thanks for your time spent reading this, I hope it's received well! 

 

Austin

[stickshift]

If there are no restrictions, why not turbo it? More power, less cost, easier on the engine internals.

Edit: there are off the shelf turbo kits available. Easy.

Edited February 2, 2020 by stickshift

[FrodoFZ]

2 hours ago, stickshift said:

If there are no restrictions, why not turbo it? More power, less cost, easier on the engine internals.

Edit: there are off the shelf turbo kits available. Easy.

I've thought about it, trust me, but its just not what I'm going for look-wise and weight-wise with my project. Plus I figure there's more knowledge that I can uncover about tuning and building an N/A CP2 engine, more so, than building and tuning for a boost setup.

How do you figure forced induction is EASIER on engine internals? I'm genuinely asking. Im not an engine builder by any means, but that just seems counter-intuitive especially on OEM components. If you can give me a thorough technical answer I'd greatly appreciate it!

[fzar]

Interesting, I'll be checking in to see where this goes.

[1tondriver]

I can’t be of any help with components but I am interested to see how it comes together. I have wanted to also have a non boosted monster FZ. Subscribed

[mossrider]

There are others on this forum far more qualified than I to give specific information on these topics. I will offer some simple observations however that may or may not be of some interest. Zoran Vujasinovic of TWF Racing, J.D. Hord of Hord Power, Matt Spicer of Robem Engineering are on this forum and Andy Palmer have built some stonking motors.

You list all of the more common performance mods. I would forego the more expensive dimple port for a more common and cheaper rough grind. From what I've seen and experienced your money is better spent elsewhere, there just isnt enough of a performance gain. 

The stock valves are pretty close as is. The K&N valves Orient Express sells would be fine as I think the tiny gain you might see would be offset by loss of durability due to lack of material between faces to keep it healthy. Same with punching out cyclinders.  83mm is about the limit or your bores get too close together for durability.

Balancing, polishing, shotpeening, cryo treating everything would be smart as you tend to play at high rpm a lot more when you get them tuned up.  Welding up the crank or getting a custom one made would be the shet and a good place to spend any money saved on custom valves and dimple porting.

You're talking a solid 100 hp with your list, probably more (105ish) on the right gas can. Since you're not bound by any rules you could burn the good stuff and tune for it but it would be hella expensive to keep that up. This might be the perfect project to experiment with E85 (or e85-91 pump blend) I know some old school guys making huge power with it and it burns cooler and doesn't detonate easilly either. Maybe have to look into bigger injectors tho, maybe R1's, I'm not sure here. Food for thought. 

If you're gonna deck the head be careful with head to piston and valve to piston clearances. You can quickly run afoul with interference on top. I would think E85 would be a good match with custom fit high compression pistons and a good set of Web cams. Speaking of cams check with Web after you decide what route you want to go. They have several grinds available for different purposes or maybe could cut you something tailored to your needs. Very cool. 

In full race duty these big motors need attention and periodic refreshing, being flogged long and hard at the top of the rev range. I would think in your application tho you would be golden as you'd be looking more at periodic, short runs through the gears to settle pecking order at bike night, C-Store supremacy, freeway roll ons etc. I know guys are putting $7500 into entry level MA superbike motors and some as much as $10-15g in just the motor, depends on the size of your wallet I guess. 

I'd also be curious what a guy could do if he could get a short throw crank from a lams bike and using some high compression slugs maybe spin this motor to +13,000rpm. Might have to rephase the counter balancer to match a higher rpm range and pay special attention to balancing the rest of it. Some spin it well north of 12g now but it's not reccamended for long in stock form. 

Anyway, sounds like fun! 

Cheers,

BLR

[norcal616]

Just turbo it... no need to deck heads, bore throttle bodies, do fancy internal polishing or lighting...

Turbo kit with swingarm extensions, powdercoating, longer chain, etc is approx $3200 and you just basically bolt it on...

As for Ti valves- only use with e85, alcohol, meth/ethanol as they burn way cooler than race/pump gas...  run StainlessSteel or Inconel valves or have OEM Ceramic coated if building a race/pump gas motor... avoid having valve stems trimmed for lighter/more flow- not worth it... 

Running boosted e85 on this motor is my next step - already got 95% of parts to start building

I really dont see the point of going to an 83mm bore just because you can...

I can see no major reliability problems with a turbo kit from Extreme Creations, just frequency of oil changes will be around 1000 miles... minor reliability problems like checking the spark plugs every oil change just to get a feel of the engine, only running premium pump gas(hopefully it's the summer blend) otherwise you really cant hammer on it... 

But I am curious to see a short stroker build, lots of power can be found if you can spin the motor faster... 

Stock OEM Injectors are 250cc and good till approx 8psi of boost on premium pump gas... to run boosted e85 you need bigger 650cc from (?) Which is my little secret for now.. 

 

You can barely see it's a "turbo bike" unless you kinda squat down a bit to see the "underside" of the bike more...

[stickshift]

10 hours ago, FrodoFZ said:

I've thought about it, trust me, but its just not what I'm going for look-wise and weight-wise with my project. Plus I figure there's more knowledge that I can uncover about tuning and building an N/A CP2 engine, more so, than building and tuning for a boost setup.

How do you figure forced induction is EASIER on engine internals? I'm genuinely asking. Im not an engine builder by any means, but that just seems counter-intuitive especially on OEM components. If you can give me a thorough technical answer I'd greatly appreciate it!

I’m no engineer, but it has to do with the different compressive and tensile forces on conrods, pistons and pins, associated with how the engine is making its power. 
 

In my opinion, at the race track there’s no beating the way NA engines deliver their power - its easier for the rider to make fine throttle adjustment and better for chassis balance. But for drag racing, street cred and just showing off, a turbo’ed bike would be pretty cool!  

Turbo option would probably be cheaper too:

Yamaha MT-07 (FZ-07) XSR700 Turbo Kit. Performance Motorcycle Accessories, Ninja H2 intercooler kit, MT-FZ Turbo Kit and stunt bike parts from Extreme Creations

---

A complete turbo kit for the Yamaha MT-07 (FZ-07). Dyno proven to run 112hp at 7.5psi and as much as 125hp with extra boost**. Read full details in the description below. OPTIONAL EXTRAS BELOW:

 

[FrodoFZ]

15 hours ago, stickshift said:

I’m no engineer, but it has to do with the different compressive and tensile forces on conrods, pistons and pins, associated with how the engine is making its power. 
 

In my opinion, at the race track there’s no beating the way NA engines deliver their power - its easier for the rider to make fine throttle adjustment and better for chassis balance. But for drag racing, street cred and just showing off, a turbo’ed bike would be pretty cool!  

Turbo option would probably be cheaper too:

Yamaha MT-07 (FZ-07) XSR700 Turbo Kit. Performance Motorcycle Accessories, Ninja H2 intercooler kit, MT-FZ Turbo Kit and stunt bike parts from Extreme Creations

---

A complete turbo kit for the Yamaha MT-07 (FZ-07). Dyno proven to run 112hp at 7.5psi and as much as 125hp with extra boost**. Read full details in the description below. OPTIONAL EXTRAS BELOW:

 

If I come across another FZ for cheap I would definitely entertain the idea of having a turbo setup, but that's just not the route I want to get with this project. And even though a stock CP2 can handle a small amount of boost, I would probably still do some internal upgrades like balancing the crank, etc. because OEM specs can still be tightened up a bit. Plus since air 'n fuel is being forced into the cylinder at pressure a few times greater than the amount of the intake charge being inducted naturally, internal mods would just be a peace of mind thing for me.

Thats just me though because I would more than likely be wringing a turbo'd FZ's neck every chance I got just to hear the turbo, and knowing my luck, *BOOM* I'd be on the side of the road 5 minutes after take off.

Now that I think about it though, a turbo FZ thats lowered with clip-ons and an extended swingarm with some custom tail and tank fab (kinda drag bike-ish) would be pretty sick... let me get through this project first!

 

[FrodoFZ]

15 hours ago, norcal616 said:

Just turbo it... no need to deck heads, bore throttle bodies, do fancy internal polishing or lighting...

Turbo kit with swingarm extensions, powdercoating, longer chain, etc is approx $3200 and you just basically bolt it on...

As for Ti valves- only use with e85, alcohol, meth/ethanol as they burn way cooler than race/pump gas...  run StainlessSteel or Inconel valves or have OEM Ceramic coated if building a race/pump gas motor... avoid having valve stems trimmed for lighter/more flow- not worth it... 

 

But I WANT an N/A hot-rodded FZ so those mods are not questionable

As for titanium valves, I have an E85 pump a few miles away from my abode, and it never even crossed my mind to have the stems trimmed so those are non-issues.

I am curious though, can you elaborate a little more on titanium valves and running race fuel? from my understanding its not that much of an issue. I use to have a YFZ450R that I would rip just about every weekend, along with a few harescrambles and MX events, that had OEM titanium intake valves while running a Vortex ECU tuned for 110. I ran that setup for 3 years and had no issues (not saying that its 100% fool proof).

 

But back to turbo-ing, are you keeping track of your turbo FZ? Im super interested in seeing the progress!

[FrodoFZ]

21 hours ago, mossrider said:

There are others on this forum far more qualified than I to give specific information on these topics. I will offer some simple observations however that may or may not be of some interest. Zoran Vujasinovic of TWF Racing, J.D. Hord of Hord Power, Matt Spicer of Robem Engineering are on this forum and Andy Palmer have built some stonking motors.

The stock valves are pretty close as is. The K&N valves Orient Express sells would be fine as I think the tiny gain you might see would be offset by loss of durability due to lack of material between faces to keep it healthy. Same with punching out cyclinders.  83mm is about the limit or your bores get too close together for durability.

If you're gonna deck the head be careful with head to piston and valve to piston clearances. You can quickly run afoul with interference on top. I would think E85 would be a good match with custom fit high compression pistons and a good set of Web cams. Speaking of cams check with Web after you decide what route you want to go. They have several grinds available for different purposes or maybe could cut you something tailored to your needs. Very cool. 

I'd also be curious what a guy could do if he could get a short throw crank from a lams bike and using some high compression slugs maybe spin this motor to +13,000rpm. Might have to rephase the counter balancer to match a higher rpm range and pay special attention to balancing the rest of it. Some spin it well north of 12g now but it's not reccamended for long in stock form. 

 

Ive communicated with Andy and Zoran a little bit thru email, and have read a lot about the other guys, which is why I feel pretty comfortable going this route.

I'm assuming they all use OEM sized valves in their builds, I haven't really found much on over sized valves and building super bike CP2's.

I'm under the impression that decking the cylinders is just "bracing" them (for lack of a better term) to handle more stress. I don't see how decking could lead to head, piston, and valve interferences, unless the decked portion of the cylinder will alter the thermal expansion of the cylinder and head material since there is added material (i.e. heat sink-like attributes of the installed deck). What are you thought on that?

 

I also don't want to lose displacement in turn for a higher rev ceiling. Im happy with a slight bump over the stock limiter with the stock displacement. But that is interesting, knowing some people have used a shorter crank for some crazy revs. A high-revving turbo build would be something even crazier... cough cough turbo guys 

 

[mossrider]

45 minutes ago, FrodoFZ said:

Ive communicated with Andy and Zoran a little bit thru email, and have read a lot about the other guys, which is why I feel pretty comfortable going this route.

I'm assuming they all use OEM sized valves in their builds, I haven't really found much on over sized valves and building super bike CP2's.

I'm under the impression that decking the cylinders is just "bracing" them (for lack of a better term) to handle more stress. I don't see how decking could lead to head, piston, and valve interferences, unless the decked portion of the cylinder will alter the thermal expansion of the cylinder and head material since there is added material (i.e. heat sink-like attributes of the installed deck). What are you thought on that?

 

I also don't want to lose displacement in turn for a higher rev ceiling. Im happy with a slight bump over the stock limiter with the stock displacement. But that is interesting, knowing some people have used a shorter crank for some crazy revs. A high-revving turbo build would be something even crazier... cough cough turbo guys ">

 

I was referring to machining the top surface of the block to square it to the cylinder bore and raise compression a point, similar to using a thinner head gasket. I did it in my first Superbike build with good results but had seriously limited clearance issues. Even in stock form the piston to head clearance is thin, when we cut the deck we had to relieve the valve cuts in the piston face for added room. 

We skipped all this malarkey in successive builds just going with stock pistons and head porting, throttle body boring and a good time to make an easy and reliable 90 hp. If I were to add high compression pistons I'd be at 95hp on pump gas, 100hp with good fuel but would also need to add rods, tranny upgrades, blah blah. Costs I didn't want to endure.

As to turbo, I'd think that a stock compression motor with rods, blue printed & balanced for reliability burning E85 would be a monster and would be relatively reliable.

I get what you're saying about na overbored, high compression motors. Mmmotor.

[FrodoFZ]

Ah gotcha. This is what I was referring to when I mentioned a decked cylinder:

Notice the difference in the coolant passages and upper cylinder support between the two blocks. 

Damn homophones LOL! 

 

How many thousandths were taken off of your block for your first SB build?

[mossrider]

I don't remember exactly but virtually nothing, a few tenthousanths?

[norcal616]

8 hours ago, FrodoFZ said:

am curious though, can you elaborate a little more on titanium valves and running race fuel? from my understanding its not that much of an issue. I use to have a YFZ450R that I would rip just about every weekend, along with a few harescrambles and MX events, that had OEM titanium intake valves while running a Vortex ECU tuned for 110. I ran that setup for 3 years and had no issues (not saying that its 100% fool proof).

Yea Ti is okay on intake side as it does not see the temps the exhaust side is exposed to...

In general pumpgas and race gas burn "hot" compared to alcohol, methanol, ethanol, e85 as I have already stated in my post...

Best of luck with your build... 

[hxman]

Better idea, buy the new Aprilia 660........

[FrodoFZ]

@norcal616 idk why I only said intake, yfz450r's have titanium valves all the way around, not just intake only, for clarification.

[FrodoFZ]

7 hours ago, hxman said:

Better idea, buy the new Aprilia 660........

That would be a cool bike to own, but I'm not so sure about it being a better idea than what I got going on in my shed currently 

[FrodoFZ]

14 hours ago, mossrider said:

I don't remember exactly but virtually nothing, a few tenthousanths?

If its worth it, I might entertain having your version of decking done to my motor. Were you able to figure out how much of a compression bump you got from doing that?

EDIT: I went back and read that you said you were able to gain a point. So for an example you went from 12:1 to 13:1?

Edited February 4, 2020 by FrodoFZ

[mossrider]

We were a bit shy of a full pt., like .8ish

[Spatt]

Just scanning through.  
 

I’d start with a more basic build based on the number of questions.  Not meaning any disrespect at all.  It’s a cool goal and I’ll cheer you on or help if I can. 
 

Motor won’t last long rev’ing to 13.  Calculate your piston speeds.  rods on the fz are long and anything past 11 your speeds are super high.  I’ve spun out to pretty far but it’s on engines I know they don’t care about longevity.  
 

 Running Titanium valves it also has draw backs, it’s almost double the cost, malleable and doesn’t like repeated beating or high spring force.  You can over come this by coatings and treatments at extra cost but at additional costs.  

100 rwhp at 689cc, 13000 rpm is would need 91 gram/sec and let’s say your doing at 60 degrees so the air is super dense.  VE is still 101%.  

Good luck

 

[stickshift]

On 2/4/2020 at 1:28 AM, FrodoFZ said:

And even though a stock CP2 can handle a small amount of boost, I would probably still do some internal upgrades like balancing the crank, etc. because OEM specs can still be tightened up a bit. Plus since air 'n fuel is being forced into the cylinder at pressure a few times greater than the amount of the intake charge being inducted naturally, internal mods would just be a peace of mind thing for me

At 7.5 psi boost the intake charge pressure is only 50% greater than atmosphere, not a huge demand on standard engine internals. I'm very tempted to go down the turbo route, but I want to still be able to use it on track (circuits), if I can get away without swingarm extensions I'd be all over it.

[FrodoFZ]

10 hours ago, Spatt said:

Just scanning through.  
 

I’d start with a more basic build based on the number of questions.  Not meaning any disrespect at all.  It’s a cool goal and I’ll cheer you on or help if I can. 
 

Motor won’t last long rev’ing to 13.  Calculate your piston speeds.  rods on the fz are long and anything past 11 your speeds are super high.  I’ve spun out to pretty far but it’s on engines I know they don’t care about longevity.  
 

 Running Titanium valves it also has draw backs, it’s almost double the cost, malleable and doesn’t like repeated beating or high spring force.  You can over come this by coatings and treatments at extra cost but at additional costs.  

100 rwhp at 689cc, 13000 rpm is would need 91 gram/sec and let’s say your doing at 60 degrees so the air is super dense.  VE is still 101%.  

Good luck

 

Thanks for the info! No disrespect taken, I know you have more knowledge in this field than I do! 

My goals for this engine are pretty concrete, but its not going to happen over night, which is why I'm gathering as much input as I can for an informed decision-making process before I start breaking into the engine (read: A good friend who's a certified tech is going to handle tearing down and putting the engine back together lol). 

I don't plan on trying to get 13,000 rpm, Im happy with a little bump over the stock limit with the stock bore and stroke.

What type of coating are you talking about in regards to titanium valves? Ceramic? MicroBlue?

 

[FrodoFZ]

10 hours ago, stickshift said:

At 7.5 psi boost the intake charge pressure is only 50% greater than atmosphere, not a huge demand on standard engine internals. I'm very tempted to go down the turbo route, but I want to still be able to use it on track (circuits), if I can get away without swingarm extensions I'd be all over it.

Couldn't a rear link upgrade from the likes of AP help with getting the power down in a comparable manner to extensions?

If so, sounds like you might be even closer to that turbo setup

[blackout]

35 minutes ago, FrodoFZ said:

Couldn't a rear link upgrade from the likes of AP help with getting the power down in a comparable manner to extensions?

If so, sounds like you might be even closer to that turbo setup

Yes.  Rear anti-squat geometry is increased so the front should stay more planted under acceleration.