Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
phanomenal07

Question for you fast track guys

Recommended Posts

phanomenal07

Does the abruptness of the throttle hinder you guys at all on track. I get pretty nervous when it's time to get back on the throttle and usually wait til it's time to start standing the bike up before opening the throttle at all. I'm in nervous to get to maintenance throttle if I'm leaning the bike over still before apex. I feel like there is a jerk no matter how smooth I try to be opening the throttle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
cornerslider

I'm  rider coach at a track school. My first question is what tires are you running? The only time I felt nervous about getting on the gas on my FZ-07 was my initial track day after installing the R6 throttle tube. There was definitely a learning curve with that 😎. I learned to be smoother with it, and like it now.  I run Q3+ tires, and I finally reached the overheating temperature (after three seasons). They got "greasy", but even when they did, they would slide/step-out very predictably. I'm running aftermarket suspension front & rear, so I can't say how the bike will behave on OEM suspension. Maybe try roll on the throttle earlier, and gradually to build your confidence up. My personal opinion is if you have good tires, and decent suspension, you would have a tough time generating enough power to get yourself in trouble on the FZ-07/MT-07 by rolling on the gas too soon. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

""W.O.T. until you see god, then brake"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mossrider

Yes. As you get faster you will benefit from precise throttle control in the more focused parts like on/off throttle at apex, how fast or aggressively you can reapply throttle as you exit turns etc. 

A couple things help. First a good tune is essential. Get your ecu or PC set up correctly so there is chop throttle fueling. You can't have any on-off coughing or balkiness. Second, keep your throttle cables lubed and taught so there is virtually no free play. Also an R6 throttle tube may help as they are quicker, more finite and accurate in real world use. 

Another thing I do is turn up the idle to about 2000rpm. I also try to use a maintenance level throttle position up off the throttle stop so I'm not trying to go from idle to fine throttle when leaned over. It all helps with your confidence when speed comes up. Braking hard to apex then throttling hard from apex is tough enough w/o battling a snatchy throttle. 

And practice lifting your motor off static throttle to whatever level of throttle you want in the pits or on stands. Shut you eyes and visualize a perfect turn,apex, throttle so your right wrist becomes digitally precise. It helps to know and understand your bikes functions intrinsically before you are waist deep in a crowded corner at speed. 

Good luck.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
phanomenal07

So this nervousness  developed after I low sided on corner exit at a track day. I always thought the fz was abrupt but it never really bothered me. My ecu has been reflash by 2wdw. At the time the fz was on stock suspension and I had michelin pilot road 5 on. Since then for my  last 2 track day i had ohlins nix 22 front and ohlins rear shock with dunlop q4. However I keep hesitating to get back on the gas. I  also scrub way more speed off braking then I did prior to the crash too but that's neither here nor there for this post.

 

@mossrider I do have the r6 tube and I'm not sure how to do the idle speed thing but I'll continue to work on getting on the throttle smoothly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mossrider
Just now, phanomenal07 said:

So this nervousness  developed after I low sided on corner exit at a track day. I always thought the fz was abrupt but it never really bothered me. My ecu has been reflash by 2wdw. At the time the fz was on stock suspension and I had michelin pilot road 5 on. Since then for my  last 2 track day i had ohlins nix 22 front and ohlins rear shock with dunlop q4. However I keep hesitating to get back on the gas. I  also scrub way more speed off braking then I did prior to the crash too but that's neither here nor there for this post.

 

@mossrider I do have the r6 tube and I'm not sure how to do the idle speed thing but I'll continue to work on getting on the throttle smoothly. 

There's a simple little set screw to turn on the cable bellcrank at the throttle bodies for the idle. You will probably get an 'error' message on your dash but you can ignore it. It's for out of spec emissions, the computer will sense the out of adjustment idle setting. When you leave the track you can reset your idle. 

As far as regaining confidence, it can take time but don't give up. Keep nibbling away at it. 

One thing about lowsiding in corners; it's more often than not caused by too little brake and not too much brake as many people think. By this I mean when you're on the brakes heading to apex you need to 'trail brake' or reduce brakes as you add lean angle going into the turn. We all know that part. But what happens is we come off the brakes too soon or too abruptly causing the front end to unload, taking weight off the tire and reducing it's contact patch at the worst possible time, at or near apex and at Max lean angle. Result=bonk, on our head. 

The fix is once you're on the brakes you're on the brakes to apex, you're committed. Adjust your brake pressure to compensate so you trail all the way to apex. You want to be 0 brake at apex so you can add throttle at apex. You don't want to unload the front tire abruptly in the turn with the brakes because you're going to unload it naturally with the throttle coming out of the turn. 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
blackout

I'm a novice track rider, but find no issues adding throttle during and out of turns.  In the many days of track riding in the rain, adding throttle has always been butter smooth on the FZ-07.  My guess is you may need something adjusted.  Also, for what it's worth, I run the stock throttle tube and will most likely never upgrade.  I can get to full throttle when needed and I don't see changing what is working for me.  Remember to grip the handle bars light, that may allow for more precise control.  

 

  • Like 1

Craig Mapstone
Upstate New York

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mossrider
Just now, phanomenal07 said:

However I keep hesitating to get back on the gas. I  also scrub way more speed off braking then I did prior to the crash too but that's neither here nor there for this post.

Try this drill.

Pick a single corner to work on. Now pick a conservative brake marker and enter the turn at a reasonable speed. Try to hit that marker, get on the brakes smoothly and precisely and match your brake pressure to your lean in angle so you have gradually decreased pressure to zero as you make apex. You're gonna find you had more time/distance than you thought and are gonna be at zero brakes before apex. Now instead of altering your brake pressure try picking a lower brake marker, 3 instead of 4 for instance. Try the corner again, same speed, different brake marker, same brake pressure. You're gonna be closer to apex when you are ready to come off the brakes. Practice this until you can enter that corner with confidence at a reasonable speed and hit apex coming off the brakes ready to transition to throttle. Next ratchet up your speed a notch and move a brake marker back and repeat the drill at a slightly higher speed, as you work your marker back down. Pretty soon you'll be smoking that turn with aggression and confidence and serious speed. Now add another corner, then another and so on. 

As for the throttle, that's the opposite of brake. You want to be accurately and progressively winding it open from apex. When your brake lever is released you are rolling the throttle open. Progressively but also aggressively as you decrease lean you roll on the beans. Again be assertive here and don't roll off or check your throttle application or you'll upset your bike and run the corner wide. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
phanomenal07
10 hours ago, mossrider said:

Try this drill.

Pick a single corner to work on. Now pick a conservative brake marker and enter the turn at a reasonable speed. Try to hit that marker, get on the brakes smoothly and precisely and match your brake pressure to your lean in angle so you have gradually decreased pressure to zero as you make apex. You're gonna find you had more time/distance than you thought and are gonna be at zero brakes before apex. Now instead of altering your brake pressure try picking a lower brake marker, 3 instead of 4 for instance. Try the corner again, same speed, different brake marker, same brake pressure. You're gonna be closer to apex when you are ready to come off the brakes. Practice this until you can enter that corner with confidence at a reasonable speed and hit apex coming off the brakes ready to transition to throttle. Next ratchet up your speed a notch and move a brake marker back and repeat the drill at a slightly higher speed, as you work your marker back down. Pretty soon you'll be smoking that turn with aggression and confidence and serious speed. Now add another corner, then another and so on. 

As for the throttle, that's the opposite of brake. You want to be accurately and progressively winding it open from apex. When your brake lever is released you are rolling the throttle open. Progressively but also aggressively as you decrease lean you roll on the beans. Again be assertive here and don't roll off or check your throttle application or you'll upset your bike and run the corner wide. 

This drill sounds like  it will help alot. I will give this a shot at my next track day. Unfortunately since I live in pa I dont think I can get to a track day til spring

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
InsaneDawe

The throttle abruptness used to bother me but when I did my 201 class this year, they had a whole drill focused on setting up before a turn. You wanna have your body position set, slowed down to your appropriate speed, shifted into the right gear and be "ON" the throttle BEFORE you lean into the turn. The only thing you want to do before and during a corner is modulating the throttle.

Those 4 things; body, brake, gear, throttle are the hardest part of any corner. It'll take practice, first give yourself plenty of time/distance then you try different markers, different amounts of brake, different body positions, etc. It's not easy, those 4 things are what make a great racer and not how much lean or throttle they can apply. 

While still a novice, only brake while vertical and avoid rear brake. As you become more advanced, you can try threshold brake (braking while turning into corners) but it's tricky since your balancing throttle and brake at the same time.

Edited by InsaneDawe
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
phanomenal07
On 11/5/2019 at 9:55 AM, InsaneDawe said:

The throttle abruptness used to bother me but when I did my 201 class this year, they had a whole drill focused on setting up before a turn. You wanna have your body position set, slowed down to your appropriate speed, shifted into the right gear and be "ON" the throttle BEFORE you lean into the turn. The only thing you want to do before and during a corner is modulating the throttle.

Those 4 things; body, brake, gear, throttle are the hardest part of any corner. It'll take practice, first give yourself plenty of time/distance then you try different markers, different amounts of brake, different body positions, etc. It's not easy, those 4 things are what make a great racer and not how much lean or throttle they can apply. 

While still a novice, only brake while vertical and avoid rear brake. As you become more advanced, you can try threshold brake (braking while turning into corners) but it's tricky since your balancing throttle and brake at the same time.

Hmm I already started trail breaking so I don't know if I wanna do this but I'm not oppose to this riding style either

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
blackout
15 hours ago, phanomenal07 said:

Hmm I already started trail breaking so I don't know if I wanna do this but I'm not oppose to this riding style either

I trail brake as well and works wonders for some corners.  

Being on the throttle before leaning in does not make sense to me.


Craig Mapstone
Upstate New York

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mossrider
Just now, blackout said:

I trail brake as well and works wonders for some corners.  

Being on the throttle before leaning in does not make sense to me.

I think we're a little cross topic here. @phanomenal07 talking about on track, @InsaneDawe about public roadways.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
InsaneDawe
14 minutes ago, mossrider said:

I think we're a little cross topic here. @phanomenal07 talking about on track, @InsaneDawe about public roadways.

No, I am talking about the track.

image.png.7effdc2a403a9ba5127b76368bc386df.png

Let me reiterate, In this image 1 is where you should do your 4 steps, 2 is where you are leaning in and trail braking or not. 3-4 is where you want to be on the throttle enough to remove any gearbox/chain/throttle slack but not really accelerating. 5 is where you roll from that "ON" to 100%, "Driving out of the corner". 

I assumed novice, which I would suggest to use 2 for more time to slowly get on throttle preventing any upsets at 3-4. If you are trail braking and find it necessary, I don't have any suggestions. I usually find myself trying to lean more than trail braking. I haven't yet figured how to trail brake and smoothly take up that slack in that 3-4 time window without blowing the drive out.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mossrider

This is a better description of what I think you were trying to convey and I largely agree with this. But if you're going to carry any kind of real speed on the track unloading the front suspension/tire in zones 1-4 abruptly can be disastrous. The objective is to flow smoothly from sector 1 to arrive at 4/5 with good speed and on the gas in a single fluid movement. This necessitates getting and staying on the brakes from upright to leaned over. This keeps the suspension loaded and working smoothly, the tire squashed onto the pavement, keeps the geometry consistant and gives the rider the best chance of safely handling the bike with options.  Being on maintanance throttle for any length of time/distance is coasting and should be minimized. Idealy the bike should either be on the brakes to some degree or on the gas to some degree.  From initial point (IP) on is a single fluid operation to apex then an opposite appearing movement coming out of the corner, while setting up for the next turn.  You mention the 4 movements happening in sector 1 but I would suggest to begin those steps as soon as the bike starts to stand up out of any corner by setting your body for the next turn etc. 

Here's a good annotated tutorial that shows great in cockpit data on the topic. Watch Jason's brake and throttle data.  Vid was made at/for BIR but the principles pertain to any track. 

Anyway, excellent discussion and sorry for any misunderstanding. 

Rail it and nail it!

BLR

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1tondriver

Great vid! Thanks for sharing. Really helps to see the braking and throttle 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  


×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.