Safety design issue - Key in ignition

[alexsali]

Hello guys,

Today i had a very unpleasant event on my MT-07 (FZ-07) which could have ended extremely bad for me (basically dead).

I was riding my bike behind a truck with 90km/h in 4th gear. I've decided to overtake the truck so I've got on the next lane and started to overtake it easy ... while i was doing this I've considered to go in 5th gear and the moment i pressed the clutch lever and switched in 5th my bike died ... so I've ended stopping in the middle of the road between lanes.

My first reaction was something like ... what the f**k just happened ... what the f**k broke.

What is the first thing you do when something like this happens? You go to the key which is in the ignition and guess what ... My key was in the OFF position. HOW DID MY KEY GO FROM THE ON POSITION TO THE OFF POSITION?

The only logical explication I found was the wind ... the force that it blew moved my key.

My luck, was that this happened while the clutch was engaged and that I never let go of the lever.

Did anyone experienced such a thing? This is by far the biggest design flaw that I saw on a vehicle ... Does anybody have documentation / information on how the key ignition works?

Things to take in consideration: I do not have a wind screen, the bike has the original stock front ... remember that this design was done by Yamaha, with no wind screen, with the wind blowing directly in the key.

Edited September 7, 2019 by alexsali

[mossrider]

Just now, alexsali said:

Hello guys,

Today i had a very unpleasant event on my MT-07 (FZ-07) which could have ended extremely bad for me (basically dead).

I was riding my bike behind a truck with 90km/h in 4th gear. I've decided to overtake the truck so I've got on the next lane and started to overtake it easy ... while i was doing this I've considered to go in 5th gear and the moment i pressed the clutch lever and switched in 5th my bike died ... so I've ended stopping in the middle of the road between lanes.

My first reaction was something like ... what the f**k just happened ... what the f**k broke.

What is the first thing you do when something like this happens? You go to the key which is in the ignition and guess what ... My key was in the OFF position. HOW DID MY KEY GO FROM THE ON POSITION TO THE OFF POSITION?

The only logical explication I found was the wind ... the force that it blew moved my key.

My luck, was that this happened while the clutch was engaged and that I never let go of the lever.

Did anyone experienced such a thing? This is by far the biggest design flaw that I saw on a vehicle ... Does anybody have documentation / information on how the key ignition works?

Things to take in consideration: I do not have a wind screen, the bike has the original stock front ... remember that this design was done by Yamaha, with no wind screen, with the wind blowing directly in the key.

There's something missing here. Do you have a fob of some sort attached to the key? A bunch of other keys and a large key ring attached to the bike key? Post a pic of the key in the ignition as it was at the time. There is NO logical way the key could turn itself.  The bike can't run with it in the off position. Something had to turn the key at that inopportune time. Fob get caught in/on/under something? Was the key actually in the 'off' position or did you turn it off under duress while sailing down the highway trying to restart-regain power?

Hmm...scratching chin, I suspect the bike stalled for some reason and the key got turned back and forth a few times under stress.  It's no design flaw. The key is semi protected (out of reach) by design to protect it from just this sort of thing and accidental manipulation. 

[noodles]

13 minutes ago, mossrider said:

There is NO logical way the key could turn itself

this

[alexsali]

Nothing attached to the KEY. Only the KEY like it's delivered by Yamaha, without any RING, keychain or anything.

Yes the key was in the OFF position, actual OFF. Not slightly turned, not between, completely off like someone turned it OFF by hand. The ignition, dash and everything related to it is stock, like YAMAHA built it.

 

The wind is the only logical explication I can find. If this is true, than this bike is disaster waiting to happen.

Edited September 7, 2019 by alexsali

[mossrider]

Yamaha is doomed.

[robbo10]

Is it possible that you did not fully turn the key to On? Vibration might have then turned it off. I cannot see wind doing that, but vibration, yes.

[Beemer]

Guns shooting people by themselves ... now keys turning off at will. What's this world coming to?!  I'm joking. Honestly, I think you jumped the gun a little here and jumped to a conclusion. I found your cause hard to believe because it would take an extreme amount of pressure on a very small point on the key (the top half) to turn the key to the left from the full start position. So, I went out to my garage and did a little experiment. I turned my key to the 'full' start position and put my index finger on the top right side of the key and mimicked the wind pressing on it.

It took a whole lot of pressure to get it to come out of that position and turn to the off position (I almost couldn't do it) but when I slowly turned the key from the off position toward the start position I noticed the display came on before it reached the full, 'locked in' position. I stopped turning the key right there before it locked in and tried to start the bike and guess what, it started. I then put my index finger back on the key and pressed on it to turn it off and with very little pressure it turned back to the off position. 

I think the mystery is solve. I think it's more likely that this happened more than anything else, you didn't turn the key all the way and started the bike without knowing it wasn't locked in the full start position and a little pressure or vibration made it go back toward the off position. If it were me I would just make sure it's turned all the way each time before I start it and enjoy my rides until it does it again but I doubt it will. GL and stay frosty!

[kbob2000]

I had the same thing happen to me once during a winter ride.  I was even in the passing a truck.  However, I knew exactly what happened when I saw the key was off.  I had thick gloves on, a windscreen and phone mount setup that made it hard to fit those big ass gloves down there to turn the key and I didn't firmly turn it to on.  So I always made sure it was engaged from then on and never happened again- it was probably 2 years ago.

 

[alexsali]

5 hours ago, Beemer said:

Guns shooting people by themselves ... now keys turning off at will. What's this world coming to?!  I'm joking. Honestly, I think you jumped the gun a little here and jumped to a conclusion. I found your cause hard to believe because it would take an extreme amount of pressure on a very small point on the key (the top half) to turn the key to the left from the full start position. So, I went out to my garage and did a little experiment. I turned my key to the 'full' start position and put my index finger on the top right side of the key and mimicked the wind pressing on it.

It took a whole lot of pressure to get it to come out of that position and turn to the off position (I almost couldn't do it) but when I slowly turned the key from the off position toward the start position I noticed the display came on before it reached the full, 'locked in' position. I stopped turning the key right there before it locked in and tried to start the bike and guess what, it started. I then put my index finger back on the key and pressed on it to turn it off and with very little pressure it turned back to the off position. 

I think the mystery is solve. I think it's more likely that this happened more than anything else, you didn't turn the key all the way and started the bike without knowing it wasn't locked in the full start position and a little pressure or vibration made it go back toward the off position. If it were me I would just make sure it's turned all the way each time before I start it and enjoy my rides until it does it again but I doubt it will. GL and stay frosty!

OK, did not think about this option. Did the same test and yes, what you said is true. The funny things is that I was riding for more than 30 minutes ... did more than 30km before this happened ... 

I also find the key turning by itself hard to believe ... this is why i have posted here, because it was such a strange thing to which i did not have any explanation, one logical explanation.

But the eyes do not lie ... Imagine one idiot in the middle of the highway (literally the middle), looking at a key in the off position. It freaked me out so bad ... just recovered from an accident with a driver who did not saw me and now this (also a 07).

 

One more question ... If the clutch was not pulled ... would the back wheel lock?

Edited September 7, 2019 by alexsali

[DewMan]

1 hour ago, alexsali said:

One more question ... If the clutch was not pulled ... would the back wheel lock?

I believe so unless you've got a slipper clutch , which the OEM clutch is not, most likely in this scenario.

[Beemer]

Agreed, I've had rear tires lock up on me at slower speeds than that. Your fright is perfectly understood. You're lucky nothing bad happened.

[Zephyr]

Good thing the clutch was pulled in.  I had a similar incident happen to me early on, except I had moved my throttle hand and accidentally hit the kill switch doing about 130 km/h.  I initially tried to restart on the fly, but ended up stopping on the side of the road freaking out a bit.  I'm pretty sure that you can restart the bike by clutching in and hitting the start switch even when rolling down the road.  I probably screwed up the sequence in my panic and that's why I ended up pulling over until my brain could settle down and think properly.  Ironically it occurred on my way to my second motorcycle safety class.  It's these events that keep us aware that we should always be learning and have our brains engaged when on 2 wheels.

Glad things turned out well and that it was an easy mystery to solve.

[robbo10]

Wouldn't it just be a bump start in theory ( ignoring the panic that I would feel)?

Edited September 9, 2019 by robbo10

[stickshift]

1 hour ago, robbo10 said:

Wouldn't it just be a bump start in theory ( ignoring the panic that I would feel)?

Yep. But you don’t often bump start at 90 km/h!

[Beemer]

14 hours ago, robbo10 said:

Wouldn't it just be a bump start in theory ( ignoring the panic that I would feel)?

It would but I'm guessing (never done it at highway speed) you would have to be in the right gear or else the tire could possible still lock up like it can do at lower speeds if you're not in the right gear (a higher gear). The ignition would have to be turned back on if it were off, also.

[robbo10]

You would be stuffed if the ignition was off, of course. Having pulled the clutch and with it back on you'd be coasting. Gently engaging the clutch you would be in bump start mode....and off you'd go?  The question I cannot answer is: at what point a rear tyre cannot defeat the engine braking any more (before it fired); and that must depend partly on the gear and slipping the clutch. Forward momentum must be very useful in this situation, surely, and firing would be quick. Appropriate throttle opening would be essential. And it is very handy to be  already sat on the bike!

Alternatively, because the engine has stopped you could use the start button with the clutch pulled.

I am talking theory here because I would quite like to be ready for this one. Theory might go out of the window, I realise, when between a rock and a hard place as alexsali has described.

[Beemer]

3 hours ago, robbo10 said:

You would be stuffed if the ignition was off, of course. Having pulled the clutch and with it back on you'd be coasting. Gently engaging the clutch you would be in bump start mode....and off you'd go?  The question I cannot answer is: at what point a rear tyre cannot defeat the engine braking any more (before it fired); and that must depend partly on the gear and slipping the clutch. Forward momentum must be very useful in this situation, surely, and firing would be quick. Appropriate throttle opening would be essential. And it is very handy to be  already sat on the bike!

Alternatively, because the engine has stopped you could use the start button with the clutch pulled.

I am talking theory here because I would quite like to be ready for this one. Theory might go out of the window, I realise, when between a rock and a hard place as alexsali has described.

I do know that it always helped when you were push starting a bike to plop your rump down hard toward the back of the seat at the point you release the clutch so that the rear tire got traction and turned instead of skidding. I don't think I would want to chance it at highway speed. I doubt it will get the traction needed, I could be wrong but I'm not testing it, lol! Best to just clutch in as you said and hit that start button.

[DewMan]

I wouldn't suggest attempting to bump start or starter button start any bike at high speeds. If at all possible coast to the edge of the roadway to assess the situation.

But if that's not an option, clutch in starter button, after getting the key turned back on, would by my safest next option as suggested by someone else above.

That said, if you somehow find the need to bump start at speed, I'd suggest you only let the clutch out for a only a split second in a gear that most closely matches low RPMs to the speed that you're currently doing. Just long enough to turn over the motor enough to catch and then immediately pull the clutch lever again so you can then rev the motor and shift, if needed, to more closely match the proper RPMs to the speed you're currently doing to avoid rear wheel lockup. This is not from personal experience just my thoughts of how best to handle the situation.

Though I can think of very few situations where it would be safer to attempt restarting your motor at speed by either method listed above than it would be to get to either the inside or outside edge of the roadway.

Stay safe everyone.