r1limited Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 10 hours ago, shinyribs said: A harescramble IS an enduro race, and has absolutely nothing to do with a MX/ stadium jump fest. You drag knee in the dirt? You countersteer in the dirt? Are you calling AMA flat track dirt riding? Or are you talking about riding offroad. Because they are two different riding styles again. Dirt track racing is a complete different form than offroad or street riding. Drifting a road race bike at "1 buck 20" really doesn't have anything to do with street riding. You have absolutly no idea what you are talking about do you? You are embarrasing yourself again. “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemer Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 This is turning into a technical side show real fast. All my bikes have basically been sit uprights with high bars, which to me, are very similar to the dirt bikes I've been accustomed to riding so in a sense I almost feel like I'm on a street/trail bike. I'm not saying doing a power slide on the street is exactly like doing one in the dirt. I never said that so I don't understand your argument. All I'm saying is the technique that was learned in the dirt can and has been applied to street riding and it has saved my arse more than once because I instinctively knew (muscle memory) how to turn the bars, balance, feather the throttle and yes, on occasion I have thrown my foot down to stop from going down. All the same principals of sliding in the dirt. Can we just agree that the techniques can be helpful? (God, this almost feels like an oil debate.) 😒 Beemer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfz1 Posted October 9, 2017 Author Share Posted October 9, 2017 I wish arguing on forums would be limited to arguing with someone in their own thread instead of derailing someone else's thread for the sake of argument.. The Idea here is to help riders improve, not to prove one of us knows more than another.. that only teaches the ones looking for help that we're all buttheads. Sportbikes4hireshop FZ-07 Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1limited Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Who is arguing? when you are wrong your wrong, when you have no clue you have no clue, giving wrong or clueless advise can leave another rider hurt or worse. I agree the off trail was imposed on thread by an incorrect view point to the actual allegory I promise to ignore such until it introduces harm. Miss information is simply misinformation, it is not arguing to correct misinformation “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I'm not wrong, we just disagree. Tell me again how cornering on dirt is just like cornering on the paved surfaces... Street: Body leaning in same direction as the bike, inside knee down or lowered. Typical crouch position to weight the front end. Most likely countersteering. Dirt: Body leaning OPPOSITE direction of the bike lean( upright torso), inside foot forward to weight the front tire, outside foot weighting the peg to force knobs in to the dirt, back tire spinning/drifting around the corner. Typical upright position to keep the front end from plowing and modulating rear traction ( who does that on tarmac). Countersteering not used as you "steer with the rear". Don't you think there is a reason that sportbikes use low clipons and very rearward mounted rearsets....whereas a dirt bike uses high bars and very forwardly mounted foot controls. Vastly different riding techniques that demand vastly different riding position. I'm not arguing, I just don't understand spreading misinformation for no reason. Look at those two pics and tell me those turning strategies are even remotely the same. Sorry for creating a stir, but I'd HATE for a new rider to attempt to rail his brand new FZ through a corner using the same techniques he uses on his CR450 on the weekends. Anyone is entitled to believe what they want. Regardless, I'll go back to my corner now...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekkid07 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Many moto gp riders practice on dirt bikes, so obviously something translates over. I think textbook technique is being taken too literally, but racers with experience in the dirt are typically more comfortable when the rear starts to get loose. Look at Nicky Hayden. Guess what they ride at VR ranch, and guess what was he riding when he broke his leg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemer Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 43 minutes ago, shinyribs said: I'm not wrong, we just disagree. Tell me again how cornering on dirt is just like cornering on the paved surfaces... Street: Body leaning in same direction as the bike, inside knee down or lowered. Typical crouch position to weight the front end. Most likely countersteering. Dirt: Body leaning OPPOSITE direction of the bike lean( upright torso), inside foot forward to weight the front tire, outside foot weighting the peg to force knobs in to the dirt, back tire spinning/drifting around the corner. Typical upright position to keep the front end from plowing and modulating rear traction ( who does that on tarmac). Countersteering not used as you "steer with the rear". Don't you think there is a reason that sportbikes use low clipons and very rearward mounted rearsets....whereas a dirt bike uses high bars and very forwardly mounted foot controls. Vastly different riding techniques that demand vastly different riding position. I'm not arguing, I just don't understand spreading misinformation for no reason. Look at those two pics and tell me those turning strategies are even remotely the same. Sorry for creating a stir, but I'd HATE for a new rider to attempt to rail his brand new FZ through a corner using the same techniques he uses on his CR450 on the weekends. Anyone is entitled to believe what they want. Regardless, I'll go back to my corner now...... No offense but it's apparent to me now you're not getting the whole picture. Think about these few things and maybe then you will see things from a different angle and understand what everyone is saying about the benefits of dirt riding before street riding. First I'd like to say that everything you just pointed out with the pics is spot on, you are not wrong but are you aware that top racers purposely swing their rear tire out to the side so that they get through a turn quicker? Those top riders learned that technique from dirt riding, believe it or not. So you see, what we're saying isn't about body positioning so much as it is about rear brake, throttle control or both combined. On a number of occasions my rear tie suddenly lost traction while leaning/hard on the throttle and the rear end kicked out and to keep the bike from high siding I instinctively used the learned dirt bike technique to turn that near accident into a smooth power-slide which felt awesome to do on the street, let alone the dirt. I also instinctively threw my foot down for balance, just like I would do in the dirt and on rare occasion i did hold myself and the bike up with the strength of that planted foot. Maybe sounds dangerous but it's helped me and many others, I assume. IDK, maybe you have to see it for yourself. Notice how with the super moto bikes some of the guys put their foot out to catch themselves in case the bike goes too low. You do that on a super sport/GP bike but it's very doable, as you can see, on the FZ-07 and similar bikes with an upright position. Beemer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 slide? might be nice to have such skills - but only to know how to deal with it. Dirt riding might help, but I'll never do it on the street on purpose. After near 50 years of riding, I've seen my share of slides - I can live w/o any of 'em. this is fun. No sliding needed. http://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/video-recommendation-gymkhana-on-a-cbr600rr.html?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Motorcycle.com_weekly&utm_source=Motorcycle.com20171006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1limited Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Super Camp, Rich Olivers Mystery School, Roberts Training Camps, Rossi's Training Camp, ETC, ETC, ETC. Here is not what is understood, while others are explaining well the the virtues of Training in the dirt others are comparing apples to oranges and not connecting the dots, thus not understanding the OPs original expression and intent. So here goes There are Multiple Disciplines of Racing, with each discipline defined has as well an underlying discipline, such as Road Racing (TT's aka Isle of Mann), Dirt Track (TT, Short track, quarter mile, half mile and mile), Motocross/Supercross, Enduro, Desert Hare and Hound, Hare Scrambles aka Cross Country with each expressing differing styles but equal skill sets. In-spite of these disciples there are basic fundamentals that transfer over from one to the other and some that do not. So BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH What is being explained here clearly by the percentage is the benefits of cross training to gain skill sets that are not available riding one single discipline. To ignore that fact is to say the percentage is ill informed. The facts remain the facts gaining skills in the dirt, training in the dirt, riding in the dirt, mud, sleet, snow and ice will transfer to all disciplines. The fact a Road Racer changes the weight of the bike in an apex by leaning off the bike lowering the center of gravity pushing down on the outer peg is absolutely no different then keeping your center over the bike, weighting the outside peg, turning into the apex it is a differing discipline. I ride my R1 different than the 07, I ride the 07 like a dirt bike, I cut into the Apex as opposed to picking the entry and exit of the apex positions, the fundamentals of line choice is exactly the same just different disciplines Apples and Oranges. Now at speed on the R1 is far different than practicing basics where I center my body on the bike, instead of leaning off head plated to the tank like I am staring at myself in the mirror. Same as a dirt bike, same as my 07 just differing disciplines. The purpose of discussion was training in the Dirt builds skills for the street pretty simple IMO. Thus the next time I go off roading on my street bike and instinctively know how to not use the front brake and use steering, gas and rear brake to not bite the big one is one of those skills that translates from dirt to street. Well that is all I can say but I discovered that insanity and delusion mean the same thing: To believe in something so strong in spite of the Truth “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 I don't know why you're so angry simply because someone on the internet doesn't agree with you. Get over yourself. It's obvious you can't ( or refuse to) read thoroughly, because I cleared stated that the only time dirt techniques become relevant on the street is when the bike is getting away from you/ sliding. I never argued that point. I said VERY FEW DIRT SKILLS TRANSLATE TO STREET RIDING. STREET!....NOT ROAD RACING. And this talk about gp riders drifting turns has nothing to do with STREET riding. If you're actually riding your FZ on the street and constantly backing it in to corners...cut it out. If you're also constantly finding yourself in a skid you need to either learn to be more aware of the upcoming road surfaces, and how to interpret them...or, you are just plain riding outside of your abilities. There's just no call for NEEDING to slide the ass end around all over the STREET. The STREET... NOT a moto gp road course. Understand?? What's so hard to understand about that? Perhaps the MSD Foundation should incorporate drifting in to their beginner courses... Ok, fine, I'm sorry I disagreed with you. Feel better? But why should we trust your advice on this topic when you clearly don't even know the basics? I mean, you say a harescramble/ enduro race is the same as mx. Do you realize that all manufacturers specifically build two distinctly different types of dirt bikes? They build enduro bikes, and they build mx bikes. Ever wondered why the KTM MX line exists alongside the EXC line? Two different machines for two totally different types of races. If you don't even understand the basics of riding dirt, how can you make all these correlations?...Oh, and they build STREET bikes, too... again, totally different machines for totally different purposes. Don't try to belittle me by telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about when I clearly do. Keep regurgitating whatever horseshit info you found on Facebook, I'll keep relying on my personal experience of 25 years of street riding and harescramble racing. I don't do pissing matches, so I'm done talking here. Think for yourself. Ride safe. Peace out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalsteve Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Wow... this looks like it got fun in here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1limited Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 They guy is just flat out wrong, perdiod, end of story. “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruizin Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Some of You guys tend to ruin a lot of threads with know it all expert assholishness. Yamaha MT-10 ForumYamaha Tracer 900 Forum Yamaha Ténéré 700 Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 2 hours ago, r1limited said: They guy is just flat out wrong, perdiod, end of story. Wrong about what? Are you 12? I agreed with you, you know-it-all....at least on the aspect of an occasional accidental slide. But I can't agree with you on the other things with valid proof that goes against your claims. My apologies, Cruizin. Feel free to delete any of my posts you see fit. This is your house after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 The two things that help a road rider that come across from the dirt the most are 1: being comfortable and able to control a sudden loss of traction ( often unconsciously) and actually moving around the bike. The traction bit is obvious where the advantage lies. The other is less obvious, until you see a beginner ( and lots of long time riders) just plonked on top of the bike, hanging on. Dirt riders learn very early that weighting you bum is not a path to control enlightenment , and work with their feet and hands and move their body weight. On a road bike you still have to do it, but much less so, it isn't as obvious. Not talking road racing here, just proper control. My girlfriend has ridden continuously for more decades than I, but until she started mountain biking ( same body control necessity as motorcycle dirt riding, though slightly different), she just plonked. She is now unphased when the rear does any little dances from traction loss, compared to complete panic before. She just does a little counter dance and continues on. Sometimes doesn't even notice it happened. \ In a word I think the word is composure. Having said that I saw a lot of dirt RACERS, who came to Road RACING, who took a while to lean in the same direction as the bike in a corner. Great on a motard, not so great on a road bike. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1limited Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 6 hours ago, Cruizin said: Some of You guys tend to ruin a lot of threads with know it all expert assholishness. Ya, I know some peoples kids.. “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruizin Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Everyone remember, this forum is about helping people. Helping is much more important than "being right". helpful and welcoming to new members. That's what this forum is about. Yamaha MT-10 ForumYamaha Tracer 900 Forum Yamaha Ténéré 700 Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1limited Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 I agree, the purpose of this from the OP was to summerize the benefits of Dirt bikes and training as it benefits skill sets at all levels of riding under any discipline. Wrong infomation or possibly innaccurate based on lack of experiance and or knowledge can harm riders. As an example the old adage of when in doubt gas it, works well in Dirt, not in street, "but the intent of the meaning is the same" the technique is different. As example if on a street bike and the bikes slides the initial instinct of a non dirt rider would be to shut off the throttle ending in a high side worse case and or a ball slapper well maybe thats the owrse case. You learn from dirt experiance to keep a steady throttle and use body language to bring the bike back up and control. So maybe it is just apples and oranges and the ego gets a little butt hurt. Principles over Personalities so I guess let me add We can agree we are Moto Junkies https://www.redbull.com/int-en/how-to-make-it-as-a-pro-motorcycle-racer “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalsteve Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 I pulled a wheelie today in second, went way too high, backed off the throttle, my feet slipped from the pegs and when the front came down I totalled my nuts.... This isn't related, just a fun story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfz1 Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 32 minutes ago, r1limited said: I agree, the purpose of this from the OP was to summerize the benefits of Dirt bikes and training as it benefits skill sets at all levels of riding under any discipline. Wrong infomation or possibly innaccurate based on lack of experiance and or knowledge can harm riders. As an example the old adage of when in doubt gas it, works well in Dirt, not in street, "but the intent of the meaning is the same" the technique is different. As example if on a street bike and the bikes slides the initial instinct of a non dirt rider would be to shut off the throttle ending in a high side worse case and or a ball slapper well maybe thats the owrse case. You learn from dirt experiance to keep a steady throttle and use body language to bring the bike back up and control. So maybe it is just apples and oranges and the ego gets a little butt hurt. Principles over Personalities so I guess let me add We can agree we are Moto Junkies https://www.redbull.com/int-en/how-to-make-it-as-a-pro-motorcycle-racer Not sure where you got that.. In the spirit of assholiness that I seem to see alot of lately: "when you are wrong your wrong". (I'd put a funny smiley here, but I haven't learned how on this forum and i've got too mauch work to do.. Sportbikes4hireshop FZ-07 Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Well, I think they're both right (rilimited and shinyribs) on a lot of points, and riding is something most of us here are VERY passionate about. Dirt and street riding are different but also a lot alike. I know, that doesn''t make any sense - unless you ride both. But, you can take the skills you learned in dirt and adapt them to the street, not so much the other way around. On the street, you are one with the bike -you and it sort of flow together in a smooth dance. On dirt, you kind of push it around under you and whip it to get it to do what you want it to do - still a dance, but not so smooth, more like a wild night of passion. Both are exhilarating - that's the same. It's almost impossible to explain or for someone to understand until they've been there. Like trying to tell a blind man what different colors look like. But the original post advised to read Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist and to concentrate on certain skills to improve. It's about practicing and practicing correctly. In my opinion that's good advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1limited Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 2 hours ago, pjfz1 said: Not sure where you got that.. In the spirit of assholiness that I seem to see alot of lately: "when you are wrong your wrong". (I'd put a funny smiley here, but I haven't learned how on this forum and i've got too mauch work to do.. “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekkid07 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 9 hours ago, gregjet said: The two things that help a road rider that come across from the dirt the most are 1: being comfortable and able to control a sudden loss of traction ( often unconsciously) and actually moving around the bike. now that would be a sight to see. an unconscious guy sliding the rear out 😁 sorry, are we not doing that thing anymore in here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member norcal616 Posted October 11, 2017 Premium Member Share Posted October 11, 2017 forgot to mention the skills and feelings I learned from dirt biking helped out when riding in bad weather more than anything 2015 fz-07- Hordpower Edition...2015 fj-09- 120whp- Graves Exhaust w/Woolich Race Kit- tuned by 2WDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 "now that would be a sight to see. an unconscious guy sliding the rear out 😁" You obviously haven't watched enough Harley riders leaving the pub... Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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