Rear ended a car at 30mph - and I'm alive (with video!)

[AlbatrossCafe]

Hey, "good" news! Talked to the dude I hit and repair was $3,347.   Not ideal, but not terrible. I was expecting $5-6k.

He also said that my helmet or something hit the top right corner of the rear of his car. I had no idea! haha

[Grant31781]

On 6/7/2019 at 9:34 PM, heftymann said:

Seriously no Insurance? You could have been really screwed. Hell you might still be as car repairs are not cheap.

Don't know where your math is coming from but I pay only $200/year for insurance on my FZ-07 and it has a really high coverage for a very low deductible. Insurance is super affordable these days no reason to not have it. I know everyone's rate is different but man no way a motorcycle costs $100/month unless you make multiple claims or something.

Is that full coverage? Does this include uninsured motorist coverage?  Is the bike financed or paid for?  What Company?

[DewMan]

10 minutes ago, Grant31781 said:

Is that full coverage? Does this include uninsured motorist coverage?  Is the bike financed or paid for?  What Company?

You need to call an insurance agent to find out what it will cost YOU. Too many variables are involved on how much it would cost you. Obviously your location, age, claim/ticket history, bike size/model, experience level, if you own other vehicles, whether you've taken MSF course etc all play a role in how much it will cost annually.

I pay $300 a year for full coverage through Allstate. It helps that it's classified as a "recreation vehicle" since I also own two other 4 wheeled vehicles so my bike is not considered my primary conveyance.

If you've got a clean driving history it shouldn't be that difficult to find a policy that won't break the bank. Good Luck.

[Beemer]

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 11:06 AM, AlbatrossCafe said:

I am hoping so hard that there is no frame damage or anything. If they (for some stupid reason) decide to total out the whole car, I am toast. Repairs will be very annoying but manageable at this point in my life. I'll never ride without it again, that's for sure.

Faster stopping == more reaction time. Rear wheel wouldn't have locked up which would have given me better steering control. Thanks.

"Faster stopping == more reaction time. Rear wheel wouldn't have locked up which would have given me better steering control. Thanks." This bothers me and I hate to be the one to have to say it but from the time the cars brake lights came on until the time you hit the car 4 seconds had went by. 4 seconds to brake and stop in plenty of time or change lanes. The video shows you letting off the gas and getting on the brakes appx. 1 second before you hit. It's true that anti lock brakes can stop a bike faster but in this case with just 1 second left to react at that speed anti lock brakes would not have made a difference to you. You were pretty much f.ucked and going to hit no matter what at that point so it's all on your riding, not the standard disc brakes. Thanks!

Again, sorry about your wreck, I don't wish that on anyone.

[mule]

3 hours ago, Beemer said:

It's true that anti lock brakes can stop a bike faster but in this case with just 1 second left to react at that speed anti lock brakes would not have made a difference to you. You were pretty much f.ucked and going to hit no matter what at that point so it's all on your riding, not the standard disc brakes. Thanks!

The difference could be between hitting at 30mph vs hitting at 20mph. Fortunately OP wasn't badly injured here, but if the speeds were a bit different, or that was the back of a truck rather than a car, etc, hitting a few mph faster could mean a serious injury or death.

[Wintersdark]

On 6/7/2019 at 1:31 PM, scat2me said:

I don't see how ABS would have helped.  Glad your OK.   

ABS allows you to stop basically as fast as a very good rider in controlled circumstances.  As soon as you lock the rear, you lose braking power.  If you're under the point of locking the rear, then you're leaving braking power on the table.  It's worse on the front, of course: lock the front and you almost certainly go down, don't lock the front and you're probably again leaving braking power on the table.

Yes, an extremely skilled rider will be able to outperform ABS (in the right situation) but ABS allows even us not-Rossi sorts to brake to the limits of the available tractions capabilities.  

This is why all cars (and now all street bikes) have ABS.  It allows you to maximize braking without risking loss of control, and it allows that independent of driver skill.

If he had ABS, he *would* have got more braking out of the rear (as he locked up the rear).  He would have been able to safely get more braking out of the front too, and likely would have freed of the fear of losing control.

[Wintersdark]

On 6/6/2019 at 11:28 AM, Grant31781 said:

I am a private pilot and practicing emergency  engine failure/ off field landings is a regular exercise. obviously we don't kill the engine and actually land off field.  While this training does make a difference in a lot of emergency landing, there are still way too many that end in a fatal stall spin. It is baffling to me when I see these happen in the same model plane I fly. It is so hard to get the plane in a stall spin yet they somehow do it and die.

 

I do believe we retain skills. So practicing hard braking is a good thing to do for sure.  I think these skills help you sure, however human error is the biggest factor. ABS takes some of that out of the equation.

For sure.  

 

What I like is with ABS, you can practice threshold braking safer.  No need to pull the fuse, it's better not to.  Feel the ABS engage, and you know where you're hitting the threshold of traction.  You can do this with the front wheel safely too; pull the fuse and you risk losing control if you don't react fast enough to the front locking up.  It's great practice to know and be comfortable braking hard, knowing you won't bail if you fail to judge the limit, so you don't under-brake out of fear.

And ABS automatically accounts for factors the rider often can't.  Oily patch on the road? Tire temp? Pavement type? Gravel?  S'all good.

[Wintersdark]

On 6/7/2019 at 12:03 PM, AlbatrossCafe said:

After analyzing the video, given the circumstances of me not paying full attention, I don't know if I could have done it much differently.

I saw the car stopping much, much too late. I noticed it at just over 7 seconds in (you can hear the engine RPMs lower as I pull the clutch) and then I hit the car at about 8.5 seconds. That gives me ~1.5 seconds total between visual indicator and crash.

A perspective here.  I was in a similar situation, at a similar speed.  I tried to swerve... And failed.  I caught my left engine guard on my kz440ltd on the rear of a car I tried to swerve around.  Because I was swerving, I wasn't braking, so I impacted at 50kph.  Bike stopped, I flew off, denting the gas tank with my nuts, breaking ribs with the master cylinder, and my body slammed into another car.  

 

Unless you've got a *lot* of room (where you could probably stop anyways), you're nearly always better off braking in a panic.  If you do hit, you hit way slower.  But you avoid swinging around, maybe failing to make it (what happened to me) or maybe successfully making it just to find further hazards you were unaware of while still going too fast.  

For sure, there are situations where it's better to swerve, but as a rule of thumb in panic situations braking is the correct choice.

[Grant31781]

This is a good video showing the advantages of ABS.

 

[Beemer]

6 hours ago, Wintersdark said:

ABS allows you to stop basically as fast as a very good rider in controlled circumstances.  As soon as you lock the rear, you lose braking power.  If you're under the point of locking the rear, then you're leaving braking power on the table.  It's worse on the front, of course: lock the front and you almost certainly go down, don't lock the front and you're probably again leaving braking power on the table.

Yes, an extremely skilled rider will be able to outperform ABS (in the right situation) but ABS allows even us not-Rossi sorts to brake to the limits of the available tractions capabilities.  

This is why all cars (and now all street bikes) have ABS.  It allows you to maximize braking without risking loss of control, and it allows that independent of driver skill.

If he had ABS, he *would* have got more braking out of the rear (as he locked up the rear).  He would have been able to safely get more braking out of the front too, and likely would have freed of the fear of losing control.

scat2me "I don't see how ABS would have helped.  Glad your OK."

I think what he meant was it was 'too late' for them to help, not that they don't help. The point is if you don't apply the brakes (ABS or not) in time they don't help one bit. Be safe!

[Xrtaco]

On 6/7/2019 at 5:42 AM, rowanh said:

"I have had LOTS of close calls in my years of riding.  A few things I have noticed in all of them and especially this one - I always focus wayy too much on the rear brake and not enough on the front. I locked up the rear in this crash and all I could think of was "wow, my rear is locked up" instead of "I'm actually only applying about 70% of the front brake that I could be applying". I've practiced quick stops many times, but when it comes a panic situation with 1 second to react, the rear is too easy to lock up IMO and it is distracting. I'm not talking about the FZ-07 - I'm talking about motos in general." 

Have you ever thought about getting some further training, it sounds to me like it could be very beneficial to you. 

With my fz, the fronts are barely used because of that nose dive. I tend to cruise when in the city so I'm usually well aware and have distance. 

 

Right now I'm in the process of getting that cbr600 rear shock installed and heard that it really kills that nose dive. I really hope it does because I have a trackday coming up soon and I need the front. 

[mule]

34 minutes ago, Xrtaco said:

With my fz, the fronts are barely used because of that nose dive. I tend to cruise when in the city so I'm usually well aware and have distance. 

 

Right now I'm in the process of getting that cbr600 rear shock installed and heard that it really kills that nose dive. I really hope it does because I have a trackday coming up soon and I need the front. 

I find my rear brake very squishy. It's enough to get around town where I also use a lot of engine braking, and is useful for stabilizing, but I really don't put much stock in it for stopping power.

I try to remind myself to brake with the front even when I don't need to because I don't like getting into the habit of relying on the rear, then being slow to jump on the front during an emergency.

[rowanh]

1 hour ago, Xrtaco said:

With my fz, the fronts are barely used because of that nose dive. I tend to cruise when in the city so I'm usually well aware and have distance.

 

I would suggest you go to a parking lot and practice braking drills for an hour. 

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by rowanh

[Xrtaco]

3 hours ago, rowanh said:

 

I would suggest you go to a parking lot and practice braking drills for an hour. 

 

Cool I'll try that. I'll also check my blinkers for any access blinker fluid. 

[AlbatrossCafe]

On 6/10/2019 at 1:41 PM, Beemer said:

"Faster stopping == more reaction time. Rear wheel wouldn't have locked up which would have given me better steering control. Thanks." This bothers me and I hate to be the one to have to say it but from the time the cars brake lights came on until the time you hit the car 4 seconds had went by. 4 seconds to brake and stop in plenty of time or change lanes. The video shows you letting off the gas and getting on the brakes appx. 1 second before you hit. It's true that anti lock brakes can stop a bike faster but in this case with just 1 second left to react at that speed anti lock brakes would not have made a difference to you. You were pretty much f.ucked and going to hit no matter what at that point so it's all on your riding, not the standard disc brakes. Thanks!

Again, sorry about your wreck, I don't wish that on anyone.

That's a point I made in a later post. I didn't see the brake lights until about 1.5 seconds before I hit. Look at about 7 seconds into the video when you finally hear me pull in the clutch. I wasn't paying attention. If I was truly not able to stop from 4 seconds back..... then I shouldn't have my moto license lol

Edited June 12, 2019 by AlbatrossCafe

[AlbatrossCafe]

On 6/11/2019 at 12:38 AM, Wintersdark said:

A perspective here.  I was in a similar situation, at a similar speed.  I tried to swerve... And failed.  I caught my left engine guard on my kz440ltd on the rear of a car I tried to swerve around.  Because I was swerving, I wasn't braking, so I impacted at 50kph.  Bike stopped, I flew off, denting the gas tank with my nuts, breaking ribs with the master cylinder, and my body slammed into another car.  

 

Unless you've got a *lot* of room (where you could probably stop anyways), you're nearly always better off braking in a panic.  If you do hit, you hit way slower.  But you avoid swinging around, maybe failing to make it (what happened to me) or maybe successfully making it just to find further hazards you were unaware of while still going too fast.  

For sure, there are situations where it's better to swerve, but as a rule of thumb in panic situations braking is the correct choice.

That's a good point! Hard braking and turning on a motorcycle (esp. without ABS) don't really go together. I wonder if I had tried that and maybe laid it down as a result if I would have been any better or worse.

Edited June 12, 2019 by AlbatrossCafe

[Beemer]

4 hours ago, AlbatrossCafe said:

That's a point I made in a later post. I didn't see the brake lights until about 1.5 seconds before I hit. Look at about 7 seconds into the video when you finally hear me pull in the clutch. I wasn't paying attention. If I was truly not able to stop from 4 seconds back..... then I shouldn't have my moto license lol

Sorry about that. I missed seeing that but at least we are in agreement. I thought you were trying to blame the regular disc brakes for your misfortune and so I said what I did. If I may suggest these two things that I've learned from my mistakes. As much as I can I try to be to one side of a car or the other when I'm behind them so that I have an escape route if things get too hairy. Second, if I have to look at something when cars are around I only look for a split second and refocus on the road/traffic. Thank god you didn't get hurt bad and please practice what I suggested. Sorry for being so rough on you. Take care!

[robbo10]

Mine has no ABS.  When learning to drive a car (very many years ago), I was taught to pump the brakes for emergency stopping. This mimicked the action of ABS.  I have never used it on the bike and I am not sure that it is appropriate. I shall now experiment. (Pumping is not to be done with ABS fitted).  FWIW, on this bike, I very rarely use the rear brake as it is almost not worth having (imho) because it is so feeble. 

[mule]

13 hours ago, robbo10 said:

Mine has no ABS.  When learning to drive a car (very many years ago), I was taught to pump the brakes for emergency stopping. This mimicked the action of ABS.  I have never used it on the bike and I am not sure that it is appropriate. I shall now experiment. (Pumping is not to be done with ABS fitted).  FWIW, on this bike, I very rarely use the rear brake as it is almost not worth having (imho) because it is so feeble. 

I don't know if pumping is a great strategy on a bike, at least the way you would in a car. Every change in braking shifts weight around which destabilizes the bike. Advice I have been given from better riders than myself is to apply pressure smoothly and evenly. If traction starts to go, back off (but don't drop it altogether) then start smoothly applying again. 

In reality doing all of this within the space of a second or two during an emergency is a tough call, which is the appeal of ABS.

[Kargaburun5]

The trick with practicing threshold braking is locking the front wheel.

You start at low speed and lock the front wheel. As soon as the front wheel locks you release the brake and recover. When you develop the sense of it and get comfortable you practice at higher speeds. Keith Code explains this in his book.

This technique is what made the difference for me.

 

[Beemer]

If only there were ABS for bad relationships.  

[NainConPetant]

Glad to see your ok

My 2017 came with ABS and I can honestly say that it saved me at least twice already

[Wintersdark]

On 6/13/2019 at 7:37 AM, robbo10 said:

Mine has no ABS.  When learning to drive a car (very many years ago), I was taught to pump the brakes for emergency stopping. This mimicked the action of ABS.  I have never used it on the bike and I am not sure that it is appropriate. I shall now experiment. (Pumping is not to be done with ABS fitted).  FWIW, on this bike, I very rarely use the rear brake as it is almost not worth having (imho) because it is so feeble. 

Nope.  Don't.  On and off the brakes so slowly (hand speed) is just shifting weight back and forth and decreasing stopping power.  You want to at most squeeze as hard as you can *while not locking the wheels*.  

ABS "pumps" the brakes very many times per second (triggered by the sensor), resulting in continued rotation but constant braking without back and forth weight transfer.