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Rain Tires? (Edit: Race Wets)

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blackout

I plan to buy some wets for tracking my bike.   Which tire do you guys like?  Thanks.

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mossrider
Just now, blackout said:

I plan to buy some wets for tracking my bike.   Which tire do you guys like?  Thanks.

Oh boy, someone's gonna have some fun! 

 

If you're talking non DOT, track only dedicated rain tires, you're in for a treat. Nothing in the dot world can match a rain tire on the track in the wet. I've worn out Michelin, Dunlop and Pirelli rain tires. Liked the Michelin (expensive), loved the Pirelli (noisy ), realy miss my old Dunlop rains (the turbine version), really tho, you can't go wrong with any of the dedicated rain varieties.  Pick one you can get cheap from your favorite vendor.  Be aware they DO NOT like dry surfaces and will wear out in a couple of laps in the dry. They have a very different tread compound in addition to the obvious tread patterns. They will let you get a knee down in the wet with  practice and last a long time if only used when track is 'wet'.  

 

Ideally it's nice to have a spare set of wheels and leave the rains mounted up and ready for use. As you've no doubt noticed a lot of track day guys have a set sitting in their kit in case of rain. Speaking of rain, a common question is, "when is the track wet?" Sounds obvious until you're looking at ruining a $450 set of tires on a damp track due to sprinkling, drizzle or dampness. Our general rule is when the drops connect and there is water standing above the surface on the pavement, (not just damp tar). Anyway, you'll figure that out.

 

Otherwise have fun and luv the rain. We do a lot of track days and usually you end up with the track to your self when it rains. There is no comparison between a dedicated rain tire and a siped dot when pushed hard. A dot tire is fine for riding the track in the wet and gives suprisingly levels of grip and confidence but is designed to last for thousands of miles. A rain tire is a sacraficial piece of rubber adhesive designed to slap a stupid grin on your puss. 

 

Otherwise Beemer is right, pretty hard to beat any of the Mich's PR series for wet

Edited by mossrider
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blackout

Yes, non-dot track rain tires.  :)  Going to buy some used wheels off e-bay.

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blackout
1 hour ago, mossrider said:

Oh boy, someone's gonna have some fun! 

 

If you're talking non DOT, track only dedicated rain tires, you're in for a treat. Nothing in the dot world can match a rain tire on the track in the wet. I've worn out Michelin, Dunlop and Pirelli rain tires. Liked the Michelin (expensive), loved the Pirelli (noisy ), realy miss my old Dunlop rains (the turbine version), really tho, you can't go wrong with any of the dedicated rain varieties.  Pick one you can get cheap from your favorite vendor.  Be aware they DO NOT like dry surfaces and will wear out in a couple of laps in the dry. They have a very different tread compound in addition to the obvious tread patterns. They will let you get a knee down in the wet with  practice and last a long time if only used when track is 'wet'.  

 

Ideally it's nice to have a spare set of wheels and leave the rains mounted up and ready for use. As you've no doubt noticed a lot of track day guys have a set sitting in their kit in case of rain. Speaking of rain, a common question is, "when is the track wet?" Sounds obvious until you're looking at ruining a $450 set of tires on a damp track due to sprinkling, drizzle or dampness. Our general rule is when the drops connect and there is water standing above the surface on the pavement, (not just damp tar). Anyway, you'll figure that out.

 

Otherwise have fun and luv the rain. We do a lot of track days and usually you end up with the track to your self when it rains. There is no comparison between a dedicated rain tire and a siped dot when pushed hard. A dot tire is fine for riding the track in the wet and gives suprisingly levels of grip and confidence but is designed to last for thousands of miles. A rain tire is a sacraficial piece of rubber adhesive designed to slap a stupid grin on your puss. 

 

Otherwise Beemer is right, pretty hard to beat any of the Mich's PR series for wet

Good info.  Thanks!  Half my track days in 2018 were in the wet.  I figure, I'll buy race wets and the sun will  always be shining.  Lol

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mossrider
Just now, blackout said:

Good info.  Thanks!  Half my track days in 2018 were in the wet.  I figure, I'll buy race wets and the sun will  always be shining.  Lol

That's how it works, lol. The most fun I've ever had was at a 2 day track day event at Barber several years ago. First day was glorious sunny fall weather, packed track and funfunfun. Second day poured rain. Me and the control rider were the only 2 bikes on track for like 4 hours. I learned more about racecraft, riding, control, cornering, braking, passing, being passed, throttle control, weight and balance, apexs, blah, blah, OMG what a day! I was on my old SV650, he was a better rider and on his dedicated rain bike, an old race prepped ninja 500. All the trackday guys were in the museum out of the rain watching us from the windows haha. Aahhhh.....memories.

 

Thinking about leaving the dot street tires behind and getting some dry track day tires too, maybe???? Hypersport tires are supergooders enough for the track but there's nothing like your first lap on a good set of slick race tires. 

 

No pressure, do what you want, who am i?

 

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mossrider

Just a few more ideas I thought I'd drop here in case anyone cared.

 

Tire manufacturer's make some great tires now days. The options used to be either a street tire or a race tire. Street tires didn't take to the heat generated on track and would get greasy, dangerous and slippery. Race tires had a narrow operating range, required tire warmers and a PhD to keep them at the correct temperature and pressure to operate safely.  Failure to pay attention with either could put you on your head. 

 

Now days most manufacturers offer a street legal dot race tire that grips like a slick, lasts a decent amount of miles/laps and doesn't require tire warmers to preheat them for track use. They generate race grip after a lap or so of warmup and technically could be legally ridden home on the street at the end of the day. (You'd wanna be damn careful riding in inclimate weather tho, they don't like water)  Tires such as Michelins Power Cup EVO, Bridgestone  RS10 and Pirelli's Diablo Supercorsa SC are popular with track day folks and racers alike. You can use warmers on them if you like for racing so you can bomb the first corner like a madman; or if you're a trackday guy just do a sensible outlap to get them up to temperature then get after it. 

 

Of course they also offer full on race slicks and next level dot race tires for the lunatic out there that require warmers to use safely. If one goes this route you would need a set of correct size tire warmers and a power supply. Lots of extension cords and a small generator are the norm here as you never know if you'll have access to an outlet.

 

Most importantly a good tire pressure gauge is a must and a Pyrometer is nice to track pressure and temperature before and after every track session. The manufacturers all offer cheat sheets for track use that cover pressure, temperature and track surface guidelines for their tires. Your local tire vendor is the resource for expert advice. 

 

Edited by mossrider
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sorkyah

@mossrider with the overabundance of info as usual

Really glad you're here dude

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mossrider
Just now, sorkyah said:

@mossrider with the overabundance of info as usual

Really glad you're here dude

I warned you foos it's a loooonnngggg winter in Mongolia.

😆

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blackout

I just ordered a set of used wheels off e-bay for $400 plus $70 shipping.  Includes all rotors, spacers, sprocket, and  mounted tires which may have some value to someone else.  Dunlop race wets are what I might go with.  They seem to be only available direct off their race website.  Is that right?  This was the case when I bought Hoosier race tires for my race car.

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mossrider
Just now, blackout said:

I just ordered a set of used wheels off e-bay for $400 plus $70 shipping.  Includes all rotors, spacers, sprocket, and  mounted tires which may have some value to someone else.  Dunlop race wets are what I might go with.  They seem to be only available direct off their race website.  Is that right?  This was the case when I bought Hoosier race tires for my race car.

You are correct, (technically) race tires will only be available in person from a track vendor or via a vendors website to licensed racers. 

 

Check

http://stores.racetireservice.com/rain-tires/

Looks like $388 for a set of rains in 185/120, cheap fun! 

 

Go to Dunlopracing.com for their race tire guides,  when you 'click here to buy' it will direct you to a vendors site for more specifics.

Edited by mossrider
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blackout

The wheels for my race wets came in.  All looks good.  The front rotors are around 4.6mm thick and the rear is 4.9mm thick.  This is close to what my 12,000 mile bike has.  At what thickness are 5mm rotors too thin?

0103192007.jpg

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mossrider
Posted (edited)

Looks good!

 

Service limit on front rotor thickness  is 4.0mm, runout .1mm.

Service limit on rear rotor rhickness is 4.5, runout is .15mm

 

 

Looks like you got everything with them, awesome! Gonna put different size on the second sproket carrier? It's nice to have quick options for gearing. I can get 3 teeth w/o changing # of links on the chain btw.

Edited by mossrider

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blackout
13 minutes ago, mossrider said:

Looks good!

 

Service limit on front rotor thickness  is 4.0mm, runout .1mm.

Service limit on rear rotor rhickness is 4.5, runout is .15mm

 

 

Looks like you got everything with them, awesome! Gonna put different size on the second sproket carrier? It's nice to have quick options for gearing. I can get 3 teeth w/o changing # of links on the chain btw.

Good info, thanks.

 

Yes, they came complete down to the spacers that could have easily gotten lost.

 

Different sprocket size.  Good idea!

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mossrider
Just now, blackout said:

Good info, thanks.

 

Yes, they came complete down to the spacers that could have easily gotten lost.

 

Different sprocket size.  Good idea!

It's kinda fun to putz with gearing. A couple teeth is negligible in top speed but can save a half dozen shifts per lap if you hit it right. Realy drops lap times and makes piloting the bike easier on the rider with less monkey bidness if you don't have to pick up a gear here or can save a downshift there a couple times a lap.

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blackout

Dismounted the front e-bay wheel, tire.  Its quite the challenge using just tire irons and rim gaurds.  But not too bad as I'm a cheap bastard.

0108191957-1.jpg

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mossrider
Posted (edited)

Next time sacrifice a few zip ties, it helps a lot.😀

 

new_tyre_fitted.jpg.c21fcfad359c4d6c55203cee60713bc0.jpg

 

maxresdefault-1.thumb.jpg.23d2a1d04f63ae1e4203ffb2d573a780.jpg

Tie sidewalls together, I prefer to pinch the sidewalls together better by placing the lock next to the rim and pull TIght,  then pull tire off rim, usually can twist the rim 90° in the tire and roll it right out.  (both sides same time) 

Edited by mossrider
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blackout

I need to try zip ties.

 

But this is how I did it.  The video makes it look easy.  It's a good workout.  Don't go to the gym the day you do this.  :)

 

 

 

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fzar
23 hours ago, blackout said:

Dismounted the front e-bay wheel, tire.  Its quite the challenge using just tire irons and rim gaurds.  But not too bad as I'm a cheap bastard.

0108191957-1.jpg

What tyre bars are the ones pictured? @blackout I see the rim protectors are motion pro. I'm curious as I'm also a cheap bastard and at $50 to mount and balance a tyre off the bike is a little outrageous to me.

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blackout
18 minutes ago, fzar said:

What tyre bars are the ones pictured? @blackout I see the rim protectors are motion pro. I'm curious as I'm also a cheap bastard and at $50 to mount and balance a tyre off the bike is a little outrageous to me.

I do not remember.  I bought them from Revzilla or Sportbike Track gear.  They came in a package of three.

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blackout
45 minutes ago, blackout said:

I do not remember.  I bought them from Revzilla or Sportbike Track gear.  They came in a package of three.

Ok, they are Bike Master.

0109192054-1.jpg

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mossrider
On 12/21/2018 at 1:28 PM, blackout said:

I plan to buy some wets for tracking my bike.  

 

One word of advice if you're gonna start swaping wheels/tires more than once every 20,000 miles.

 

Replace (or upgrade) your rear axle and nut once per year as a matter of course. 

 

 

It's cheap & it prevents a billion dollars in aggravation, trust me on this. 

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blackout
On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 5:49 PM, mossrider said:

 

One word of advice if you're gonna start swaping wheels/tires more than once every 20,000 miles.

 

Replace (or upgrade) your rear axle and nut once per year as a matter of course. 

 

 

It's cheap & it prevents a billion dollars in aggravation, trust me on this. 

I plan to knock that metal clip out in the stock nut to make it no longer a locking nut.  Then I will figure out a way to use safety wire and, or clip to keep the nut from loosening.   Good reminder, thanks.  I spray that nut down with wd-40 before loosening to get dirt out and lube the threads.  But, by the nature of design, a metal locking nut will score threads over time.

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fzar
1 hour ago, blackout said:

I plan to knock that metal clip out in the stock nut to make it no longer a locking nut.  Then I will figure out a way to use safety wire and, or clip to keep the nut from loosening.   Good reminder, thanks.  I spray that nut down with wd-40 before loosening to get dirt out and lube the threads.  But, by the nature of design, a metal locking nut will score threads over time.

I had a dealership that were mounting tyres on my bike find out about the locking nut galling the thread on the axle. They replaced both axle and nut at their expense. I decided that if and when it happens to me to replace them both 1 time is around $50 so I just bought this:

https://www.bellissimoto.com/parts/fasteners-hardware/axle-nuts/gilles-tooling-acm-titanium-axle-nut-m18-x-1-5-for-honda-kawasaki-suzuki-triumph-yamaha-models

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mossrider

Kinda funny, my first axle and nut locked together my first season racing this thing. I used an air chisel to cut the nut off the axle. (Some use a dremmel or cutoff wheel) The interesting thing was the threads had work softened and rolled into one another effectively jamming the two pieces into one, even great force couldn't move the nut on or off.

 

Closer examination of the threads, which were unchanged by popping the nut off with a chisel, showed they had fatigued enough to allow a fine steel whisker to roll off the axel and jam between the fatigued threads of the axel and the stretched threads of the nut.  Bugger. 

 

I had probably r&r'd the rear 20? times at that point. I was still using the factory torque values at that point as well. Since that time I have been tightening them to around half factory spec with no further problems. I have also replaced the axle and nut every off season for simplicity and carry an extra set in my spares kit.

 

Since building mine I have had hands on exposure to another 12 or so race/track fz07's. Almost all of them have had the same problem at some point. I have either helped or removed another 4 or 5 nuts from other bikes too. All have looked the same, rolled, fatigued or stretched threads, wire whiskers and much anger. I have talked to Andy Palmer about it as well. He has had the same experience with many of the bikes he has to-do with. I see a mix of after market nuts/axles and factory nuts/axels trackside. 

 

Obviously this problem manifests itself on race and track bikes due to the increased amount of usage those parts get during repeated wheel swaps. A street bike would take years to see the same usage.

 

I'm not advocating anything. You guys can do whatever you want to with this information.

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