Icon Helmets Banned from ASMA

[r1limited]

Not sure if this belongs here but good read for those looking at ICON and or KBC

 

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/asma-bans-icon-helmets-citing-safety-concerns/

 

Quote

The Arroyo Seco Motorcyclist Association (ASMA), a club-level motorcycle road racing association based at Arroyo Seco Raceway in Deming, New Mexico, has issued a ban on the use of Icon helmets during its race events until further notice.

 

“As of today, Monday November 12, 2018, Icon helmets are no longer allowed in ASMA Motorcycle Roadracing Competition,” read at post today on the official Facebook page of ASMA. “We have seen too many head injuries with this brand of helmet and as a group we voted to exclude them from the list of acceptable helmets. Icon joins KBC as the only brand of helmets that are on this list. We do require ECE or Snell 2010 or newer certification for racing purposes. We are also discouraging anyone considering track days, riding on the street, or playing in a sandbox from using these helmets.”

 

[bornagainbiker]

5 hours ago, r1limited said:

We are also discouraging anyone considering track days, riding on the street, or playing in a sandbox from using these helmets.”

Damn it, what am I going to wear in the sandbox now. 

[faffi]

Interesting, thanks for bringing it to our attention, R1L 

[Beemer]

“It seems like every time someone crashes in [an Icon helmet] they end up with a concussion,”

All I can say is if concussions are the reason they banned the helmet then this is a joke because no helmet can stop the brain from sloshing around and slapping the insides of the ol' brain bucket. There are no concussion proof helmets. I could be wrong but until someone gives a good, believable, explanation it looks like pure coincidence to me.

 

Edit: If polycarbonate shells are too flexible and are the reason for blunt force injuries it makes sense to ban them but as mentioned, no helmet can be the reason for a concussion to occur unless you don't understand concussions and have the tendency to spew from the mouth. I'm looking at the writer of the article.

[r1limited]

56 minutes ago, Beemer said:

“It seems like every time someone crashes in [an Icon helmet] they end up with a concussion,”

All I can say is if concussions are the reason they banned the helmet then this is a joke because no helmet can stop the brain from sloshing around and slapping the insides of the ol' brain bucket. I could be wrong but until someone gives a good, believable, explanation it looks like pure coincidence to me.

I posted it as a interesting article.  my reaction was the same.  However they did mention that the club/track requirments are SNELL and ECE for racing.

Quote

We do require ECE or Snell 2010 or newer certification for racing purposes

Logistics matter, was this being overlooked? were these "accidents" regarding noobs, experience or other?  I wondered this as most serious riders I know have for the most part 500 to xxxx.xx plus lids on thier noodles.

I would like to have seen the logistices as it seems to me this is about mitigating lawsuits for cheap ass riders with $100 noodles

[r1limited]

And this this morning

 

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/asma-expands-icon-helmet-ban/

 

Copyright 2018, Roadracing World Publishing, Inc.

By David Swarts

 

The Arroyo Seco Motorcyclist Association (ASMA), a club-level motorcycle road racing association based at Arroyo Seco Raceway in Deming, New Mexico, has modified its ban on Icon brand helmets to include all helmets with a polycarbonate outer shell.

 

ASMA announced on Monday, November 12th that it was banning all Icon helmets. ASMA had previously instituted a ban on all KBC helmets several years ago.

 

“Upon further discussion,” read a Tuesday, November 13th, post on the official ASMA Facebook page, “ALL polycarbonate helmets will be banned from ASMA Competition use, not any single brand. One thing not discussed is the fact that many times when a rider hits his head in a poly helmet, it can do damage to the inside foam without really showing any damage to the outer shell because the plastic bounces right back. All helmets used during competition for 2019 will need to be fiberglass or carbon based hard shells. We will be closely watching the FIM certification list as well. In addition to having one of the following certifications, no polycarbonate helmets will be allowed in competition in 2019: ECE 22-05 P, JIS T 8133, Snell M 2010 or newer. This is the correct way to make the rules fit what we are looking for as a group to protect ourselves and each other.”

 

Roger Heemsbergen, the President of ASMA, owner of Arroyo Seco Raceway and an active racer, called Roadracingworld.com Tuesday to inform us that ASMA had modified its ban.

 

Heemsbergen also said that Justin Knauer, General Manager, Icon Motorsports had called him to discuss the issues ASMA was seeing with Icon helmets and to get more information.

 

Knauer has not returned a November 12th telephone call and voicemail message from Roadracingworld.com seeking comment on ASMA’s ban of Icon helmets.

 

Polycarbonate is a synthetic resin in which polymer units are linked with carbonate groups. Polycarbonate is sometimes referred to as thermoplastic and is widely used in manufacturing because it is lightweight yet strong and can be molded into just about any shape imaginable. Polycarbonate is widely used in the making of inexpensive motorcycle helmet shells. Higher-quality motorcycle helmets generally have shells made from fiberglass, carbon fiber, or a combination of composite materials. 

[r1limited]

Icon Sport Responds
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/icon-motorsports-releases-statement-regarding-asma-helmet-ban/

 

Icon is aware of the recent statements regarding Icon helmets initially published as a result of the Arroyo Seco Motorcyclist Association (ASMA) (Deming, New Mexico) vote to ban Icon helmet use at their association sanctioned events (although they are not banned for use at the Arryo Seco Race Track or for any other U.S. racetrack or event). 

Icon disagrees in the strongest terms possible with the initial statements of 12-November-2018 published on the ASMA Facebook page and subsequently reported on Roadracingworld.com and in the many social media reposts and comments that followed.

All Icon helmets regardless of construction and materials are tested and certified according to UN ECE Regulation 22.05 (the EU helmet standard) and Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 218 (FMVSS 218 the U.S. DOT helmet standard). To meet the requirements ECE 22.05 batch testing is required for each production run to confirm consistency and quality.

Icon is concerned for the safety of our riding family. Although it is not common knowledge, Icon is deeply involved internationally in the development of testing and certification procedures and standards for motorcyclist’s protective products not just helmets, both in the U.S and the EU and is one of only two U.S. motorcyclist apparel companies that participates in the rule making process at the international level. Icon additionally strives to work with industry partners who share Icon’s vision.

Icon – Designed by riders just like you in the Pacific Northwest. We ride just like you we crash just like you and we do it so that you can continue to Ride Among Us.

Justin Knauer – General Manager ICON Motosports

 

[r1limited]

All ICON has to do is give the owner free helmits like he actually wants

[cyow5]

3 hours ago, r1limited said:

Polycarbonate is a synthetic resin in which polymer units are linked with carbonate groups. Polycarbonate is sometimes referred to as thermoplastic and is widely used in manufacturing because it is lightweight yet strong and can be molded into just about any shape imaginable. Polycarbonate is widely used in the making of inexpensive motorcycle helmet shells. Higher-quality motorcycle helmets generally have shells made from fiberglass, carbon fiber, or a combination of composite materials. 

 

I'll give you three guesses what resin is often used in composite helmets...

[r1limited]

32 minutes ago, cyow5 said:

 

I'll give you three guesses what resin is often used in composite helmets...

1. Polyunsaturated
2. Polyeurothane
3. PolyShore

[Beemer]

Concussions from polycarbonate helmets only? Yeah, right!

https://concussion.weillcornell.org/does-helmet-protect-me-against-concussion

[Beemer]

On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 10:42 AM, r1limited said:

I posted it as a interesting article.  my reaction was the same.  However they did mention that the club/track requirments are SNELL and ECE for racing.

Logistics matter, was this being overlooked? were these "accidents" regarding noobs, experience or other?  I wondered this as most serious riders I know have for the most part 500 to xxxx.xx plus lids on thier noodles.

I would like to have seen the logistices as it seems to me this is about mitigating lawsuits for cheap ass riders with $100 noodles

It seems to me the injuries they're referring to (if the injuries are occurring in polycarbonate helmets for the most part) are 'blunt force injuries', not concussions, which could be caused by a flexible shell making contact with the interior foam as mentioned in the article. If they truly are concussions that can only mean guys are slamming their heads on the pavement extra hard because of the extreme speeds at which they are riding and no helmet can prevent a concussion. Bearing in mind that these guys are flying around a track at speeds much higher than riders on the street I wouldn't go so far as to say a polycarbonate helmet isn't safe for the street use. This article doesn't prove that but here is a study that has been done on actual accidents on the streets involving different types of helmets/materials in helmets.

 

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc1981/pdf_files/1981_16.pdf

[cyow5]

40 minutes ago, Beemer said:

Concussions from polycarbonate helmets only? Yeah, right!

https://concussion.weillcornell.org/does-helmet-protect-me-against-concussion

The issue they are referring to is not the helmets' ability to protect, but that a damaged poly helmet has no outward signs of damage. Their logic is that the shells on FRP helmets crack more easily and therefore you are less likely to be riding with a compromised helmet without knowing it. I have noticed that my FRP helmet chipped badly when I dropped it off my bars, but that's my only experience, so I cannot speak to the validity of their claim. 

[r1limited]

This also plays into the age factor of all helmets in my opinion.  I am pretty sure most all track promoters be it track day or race place into effect a min date stamp on helmets.  5 years is the norm for all lids, the break down is a concern, so the argument from ASMA IMO is putting a huge blanket over to cover all.  Again, my opinion but I will bet bottom dollar the attorneys are more influential on this decision, as it would put them in legal jeopardy

[Beemer]

27 minutes ago, cyow5 said:

The issue they are referring to is not the helmets' ability to protect, but that a damaged poly helmet has no outward signs of damage. Their logic is that the shells on FRP helmets crack more easily and therefore you are less likely to be riding with a compromised helmet without knowing it. I have noticed that my FRP helmet chipped badly when I dropped it off my bars, but that's my only experience, so I cannot speak to the validity of their claim. 

First of all, they are talking like they're ignorant. Any rider should know that if your helmet is in a crash you do not keep using that helmet, whether it be polycarbonate or not unless you have x-ray vision and can see through the shell. 

 

Second and I quote: "One thing not discussed is the fact that many times when a rider hits his head in a poly helmet, it can do damage to the inside foam without really showing any damage to the outer shell because the plastic bounces right back."

^^^ that mean's that wasn't even a factor in their decision, it came to someone's mind afterward. 

 

And last, “It seems like every time someone crashes in [an Icon helmet] they end up with a concussion,” said Heemsbergen. 

 

I have to assume he is not a stupid man so does he have an agenda to have made such a stupid, misleading comment or did he simply have a moment of stupidity when he said that? 

 

[r1limited]

15 minutes ago, Beemer said:

I have to assume he is not a stupid man so does he have an agenda to have made such a stupid, misleading comment or did he simply have a moment of stupidity when he said that? 

Icon proly did not pay the club to have a banner or whatever nor gave free swag.  So he posted this
 

Ya x-files

[Beemer]

19 hours ago, r1limited said:

Icon proly did not pay the club to have a banner or whatever nor gave free swag.  So he posted this
 

Ya x-files

You never know what people are capable of until you don't pay to play. Just look at the mafia and the IRS!

[r1limited]

Latest update, ASMA Prez says So Sorry Me bad

 

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/asma-president-apologizes-on-facebook-for-specific-comments-discouraging-anyonefrom-using-icon-helmets/

 

Quote

Then on November 14, Heemsbergen issued an apology via the ASMA Facebook page to Icon Motorsports for parts of his initial comments about Icon helmets, specifically where he discouraged anyone from using Icon helmets, even when “playing in a sandbox.”

 

“We would like to offer an apology to Icon helmets for the joke at the end of our statement covering our racers decision to ban their brand of helmet,” read the November 14 post on ASMA’s Facebook page. “All of our racers know we like to joke around, even while covering important subjects. We have since amended our statement that was meant only for our little group to only include polycarbonate helmets and no specific brands. We have been attacked because there is no actual scientific evidence behind the decision, but we made our decision as a group of racers with a vote and although wording needed to change, the basic decision to not allow the cheaper plastic helmets remains no matter the brand.

 

“I did speak with Justin Knauer, General Manager of Icon yesterday [November 13] and he assures me he is a rider and wants the same protection as the rest of us and truly believes in his product.

So another words someplace betwe Then On Nov 14 and Believes in his product Heemsbergen heard "WE ARE GONNA SUE YOUR ASS FOR DEFAMATIION"

 

And now you know -- the rest of the story. -- Good Day

[cyow5]

"We have been attacked because there is no actual scientific evidence behind the decision". Wow, that's like a five year old crying because someone hit them back. 

[shinyribs]

I have a thought about polycarb vs carbon or 'glass lids, but I'm no helmet expert. 

Edit: got longwinded again. sorry...

I rode dirt bikes for a long time in polycarb lids. Never really went down in any dramatic offs that ended up with my helmet smacking the ground hard, but I taken many limbs, rocks and other whacks on the head. So, I'm pretty familiar with the feeling or sensation of something hitting my head ( not the proudest thing I ever typed) while in a polycarb lid. When a low hanging branch slaps my helmet I kinda know what to expect to feel. Never felt inspired to drop several hundred dollars on a dirt lid that I knew was gonna be abused.

 

I recently replaced an aging polycarb with a new carbon/kevlar fiber helmet. It's very light and noticeably rigid. Also, since it's fresh, the interior padding and EPS foam is full strength, so to speak, unlike my old helmet that had seen a few thumps. My first day out with the new helmet had me noticing the hitting tree branches no longer resulted in a dull "whup" noise, but now gave a loud, sharp "CRACK" when I hit them. I was surprised by this and figured it was just the nature of this helmet having less comfort  liner around the ears and shrugged it off. I can hear very well in this lid.  But after riding in that helmet for a few months now and tapping my head on a few obstacles here and there ( nothing major) I can say this this stiff shell imparts a LOT of energy to my head that I wasn't seeing before. To the point that I'm starting to wonder if such a rigid shell is really such a great idea, in the woods at least. 

 

Slamming your noggin on the freeway at 90mph?...yeah, maybe we want a shell that's most likely not gonna crumble and cave in. But some moderate bumps here and there?....hmmm....maybe a flexible shell isn't such a bad idea? I mean, the whole idea of a helmet is energy absorption, right? So are super rigid shells the right path to take? 

 

For sake of argument, my new lid is a Fly F2 Carbon with dual density EPS. My most recent lid that it replaced was a "cheap" Sparxx lid that was poly carb with it's own version of dual density liner. Instead of different layers of EPS foam, that Sparxx lid had a single density of EPS foam out against the shell, but against your head (before the comfort liner) was a strange rubbery type of foam. Kinda like a really soft shoe sole. Apparently it was great at energy absorption? 

 

 Along the lines of EPS foam being squashed inside a poly carb lid, I think that's a legit concern. I've been meaning to peel the EPS out of my old Sparxx lid to see if I notice anything like that anywhere. it's definitely seen enough whacks that I feel the EPS should have a bruise or two in it The last time I rode in the Sparxx lid I slammed in to a tree pretty hard. Took the brunt of the load on the side of my head and neck. I do know the EPS around the cheek area actually broke in that impact, because the cheek pad fell out when I removed the helmet. I glued it back in place with some tree sap (lol) to make the ride home, and replaced the helmet immediately. So while I know that chunk of EPS did break in two pieces, it also did not appear crushed or flattened at all. And the scars on the shell did not line up with where the EPS cracked. I think what happened is the shell flexed and absorbed the hit and the EPS cracked because it was more rigid than shell and couldn't flex as far. I don't really know, but I do know that I don't think my much more expensive carbon/kevlar shell would have been as "comfortable" under the same exact circumstances. 

 

But every crash is different, and nobody can foresee the millions of different ways to thump your head. Interesting topic to think about, for sure.

 

 

[shinyribs]

On 11/14/2018 at 11:34 AM, r1limited said:

Icon Sport Responds
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/icon-motorsports-releases-statement-regarding-asma-helmet-ban/

 

Icon is aware of the recent statements regarding Icon helmets initially published as a result of the Arroyo Seco Motorcyclist Association (ASMA) (Deming, New Mexico) vote to ban Icon helmet use at their association sanctioned events (although they are not banned for use at the Arryo Seco Race Track or for any other U.S. racetrack or event). 

Icon disagrees in the strongest terms possible with the initial statements of 12-November-2018 published on the ASMA Facebook page and subsequently reported on Roadracingworld.com and in the many social media reposts and comments that followed.

All Icon helmets regardless of construction and materials are tested and certified according to UN ECE Regulation 22.05 (the EU helmet standard) and Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 218 (FMVSS 218 the U.S. DOT helmet standard). To meet the requirements ECE 22.05 batch testing is required for each production run to confirm consistency and quality.

Icon is concerned for the safety of our riding family. Although it is not common knowledge, Icon is deeply involved internationally in the development of testing and certification procedures and standards for motorcyclist’s protective products not just helmets, both in the U.S and the EU and is one of only two U.S. motorcyclist apparel companies that participates in the rule making process at the international level. Icon additionally strives to work with industry partners who share Icon’s vision.

Icon – Designed by riders just like you in the Pacific Northwest. We ride just like you we crash just like you and we do it so that you can continue to Ride Among Us.

Justin Knauer – General Manager ICON Motosports

 

I usually dismiss ICON gear due to it's style. I'm not trying to bash it, I just typically go for a more subdued type of gear. But this makes me want to buy their products.