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Stephenms

Tuning: Baffle in or Baffle out?

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Stephenms

Hey guys, I'm Stephen I have a 2017 FZ-07 in Rapid Red. I Just broke 4200 miles and im in the market for exhaust and a tune. I'm between the Akrapovic Carbon or the china spin-off, Lextek Carbon. The systems are frankly identical dimension wise, the quality is what's different. Anywho, my concern is: I plan on getting a tune from Vcyclenut (since he's 30 minutes away from me) and I don't know whether to tune the bike with baffle-in or baffle-out. I plan on getting the injector cut-off removed, changing the fan kick on to 205, and obviously specifying what exhaust I'm going with. I plan on running the bike with the baffle-in (you're welcome neighbors) but one day when I'm feeling froggy I'd like to remove the baffle. Would this make the bike run worse since it's tuned for baffle-in? Or would it make no difference since the Lextek/Akrapovic have the "loop" for better back pressure and pipe length? I did some research but could only find a lot of Harley's that ran so much worse with the baffles removed.

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shinyribs

I'm running a different exhaust, and a stock ECU, but baffle in or out doesn't really make any difference in my experience. If I run with the baffle out for a couple days, and then reinsert it, the next time I start the bike it smells a tad rich at first, then clears up. I'm assuming this is the O2 sensor doing its job and adjusting the air/fuel mixture as needed. No discernible power difference. 

 

 

I personally wouldn't mess with the fan temp cycle. Everything works perfectly as it is now. The bikes are strong, reliable and fuel effective as delivered. I know we're tempted to "tune" the bike and make a bunch of power, but the truth is that is just not gonna happen with these bikes. Running the bike too cold is very  bad for a lot of different things, and if your tuner doesn't grasp those ideas regarding an internal combustion engine, well...

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Stephenms

I assumed the baffle-in/out wouldn't be an issue, just had to throw the concern around. I appreciate the response.

 

I agree with the fan temp cycle. I work in the automotive field and vehicles are designed to run hotter and be more fuel efficient with the same longevity so I should have assumed newer modeled bikes are the same way, to a degree. I'm not looking for power, I enjoy the 46mpg in town too much. It's fairly hot here in the summers so I see the bike temp touch it's fan peak of 127/129 very frequently. I was swayed by a fellow 07 rider to lower the fan temps to the lowest possible and that just seemed asinine to me so i went with the 205 peak. I will be leaving it stock most likely now.

Edited by Stephenms
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Beemer
2 hours ago, Stephenms said:

Hey guys, I'm Stephen I have a 2017 FZ-07 in Rapid Red. I Just broke 4200 miles and im in the market for exhaust and a tune. I'm between the Akrapovic Carbon or the china spin-off, Lextek Carbon. The systems are frankly identical dimension wise, the quality is what's different. Anywho, my concern is: I plan on getting a tune from Vcyclenut (since he's 30 minutes away from me) and I don't know whether to tune the bike with baffle-in or baffle-out. I plan on getting the injector cut-off removed, changing the fan kick on to 205, and obviously specifying what exhaust I'm going with. I plan on running the bike with the baffle-in (you're welcome neighbors) but one day when I'm feeling froggy I'd like to remove the baffle. Would this make the bike run worse since it's tuned for baffle-in? Or would it make no difference since the Lextek/Akrapovic have the "loop" for better back pressure and pipe length? I did some research but could only find a lot of Harley's that ran so much worse with the baffles removed.

If you're taking your bike to Vcyclenut I would think he could answer your question. Have you asked him?

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FZ07R WaNaB
10 hours ago, shinyribs said:

I personally wouldn't mess with the fan temp cycle. Everything works perfectly as it is now. The bikes are strong, reliable and fuel effective as delivered.

IMO, the FZ-07's motor/fuel mapping sucks as delivered. Between the erratic throttle response and the engine breaking, the stock bike isn't a lot of fun to ride, especially compared to what it is like after being properly flashed. I was just riding my bike yesterday, and am still amazed at how good it runs. It's been about 7,000 miles since 2WDW flashed my bike. I have a stock exhaust, and my concern was with smoothing the throttle response and getting rid of that damn engine breaking. Within 1 block of riding it, I knew it was a completely different motor. I've posted before on this forum that if I had only one mod I could do to the FZ, it would getting the ECU flashed.

 

While I appreciate the advantage of having a tuner close by, I would serious ask him how many FZ-07s he has done. The one a lot of people on this forum go to is 2 Wheel DynoWorks who has done a ton of FZ-07 flashes. I have never heard anything negative on this forum about Nels and 2WDW.

 

BTW, he sets the temp at 201 degrees.

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norcal616

baffle in is easier to tune with the FZ-07 engine vs baffle out... a good majority of exhaust require a diffrent map for baffle in and baffle out... a very select few exhaust use the same map for baffle in and out...

 

an aftermarket exhaust plus tune will net an extra 5hp avg... 

 

Hordpower Airbox, aftermarket exhaust and tune will net an extra 10hp avg- this is how the FZ-07 should have been from the factory 😁

 

Hordpower Airbox and tune will net an extra 4-5hp

 

aftermarket airfilters or stock airbox mods are not even worth it for an extra 2hp avg

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shinyribs
13 hours ago, FZ07R WaNaB said:

IMO, the FZ-07's motor/fuel mapping sucks as delivered. Between the erratic throttle response and the engine breaking, the stock bike isn't a lot of fun to ride, especially compared to what it is like after being properly flashed. I was just riding my bike yesterday, and am still amazed at how good it runs. It's been about 7,000 miles since 2WDW flashed my bike. I have a stock exhaust, and my concern was with smoothing the throttle response and getting rid of that damn engine breaking. Within 1 block of riding it, I knew it was a completely different motor. I've posted before on this forum that if I had only one mod I could do to the FZ, it would getting the ECU flashed.

 

While I appreciate the advantage of having a tuner close by, I would serious ask him how many FZ-07s he has done. The one a lot of people on this forum go to is 2 Wheel DynoWorks who has done a ton of FZ-07 flashes. I have never heard anything negative on this forum about Nels and 2WDW.

 

BTW, he sets the temp at 201 degrees.

I hear ya, man. But it's a bit of a Catch-22 on the throttle response. I'd love to have my throttle be nice and smooth, but I'm not willing to give up the engine braking. Personally, I never felt it was severe. I was actually happy to finally have a street bike that had engine braking for once! 

 

I still have my own personal reservations about the lower temp fan cycles. Mainly because of how the coolant system routes through the oil filter mount. It's possible that a coolant temp swing of 20° ( 200-220) doesn't have much impact on oil temp, but I don't think anyones measured that. I realize that dino oil starts breaking down around 280°f, but 200° is an awfully low temp if this is the concern. 

 

Even old American V8's from the 60's that were running 180° coolant temps were designed with 220°+ valve train temps in mind. 

 

I'm not doubting anything, I'm just saying I don't really understand the reasoning behind aiming for a 200° coolant temp. I just can't see it  affecting intake air temps that much to actually improve power. In fact , running an unshrouded airbox ( Hordpower or de-snorkled) in combination with a lower fan temp is gonna have hot air rushing over that intake area far more than the stock setup. When the fan does come on in traffic the heat blowing back on you is very noticeable, but brief. I wouldn't want it cycling far more often IMO. 

 

It's impossible, but I love to see a dyno pull off a stock setup vs a heat soaked/surrounded open element intake. And also a long term difference in carbon buildup in a cold vs hot engine. Carbon buildup on valves can really restrict airflow and is very abrasive/destructive when little bits of it flake off. 

 

Not being an alarmist, just thinking out loud. 

Edited by shinyribs

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Stephenms

Thanks for the responses guys. I believe vcyclenut is more popular with the fz09s. According to his website he's been tuning/testing Yamaha's since early 2000s. I sent vcyclenut and 2wheeldyno a quick email about the exhaust situation and the benefits of running a cooler fan temp.

 

Is there really a big different between the engine braking before tune in relation to after? This is my first motorcycle and have been riding since February so the world of tune is still fairly new to me. I thoroughly enjoy the engine braking though. I'm off my brakes a lot more often around town. I did read these come lean from the factory and that regardless a tune will "liven" up the ride so I'm looking forward to that!

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DewMan
8 minutes ago, Stephenms said:

Is there really a big different between the engine braking before tune in relation to after? 

Yes.

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FZ07R WaNaB
7 hours ago, Stephenms said:

Is there really a big different between the engine braking before tune in relation to after?

ABSOLUTELY

As a new rider it would be very easy to get in trouble due to the engine braking. If you downshift at the wrong time  (e.g. in traffic or cornering), and aren't ready for that braking it could be really bad.

 

As far as the "liven up" goes, the answer to that is a little weird. You will gain around 4 hp with your pipe and the flash, but the smoothness of the throttle will take away the jerkiness that you have been feeling. At first it almost seems that it's not as snappy due to the smoothness, but in reality it's definitely quicker. Like I said before... THE best mod I did to my FZ.

 

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Stephenms
2 hours ago, FZ07R WaNaB said:

l

As far as the "liven up" goes, the answer to that is a little weird. At first it almost seems that it's not as snappy.

 

Well with that being said does it give the bike somewhat of a boring power band? I know there's going to be a new learning curve with normal riding and rev matching. I guess it's one of things I just have to experience for myself.

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FZ07R WaNaB
9 minutes ago, Stephenms said:

Well with that being said does it give the bike somewhat of a boring power band? 

Good question actually. I had an adjustment period where I missed the erratic throttle. It didn't take me long to realize that it was actually snappier but in a smooth way. Plus you really need to get the R6 throttle tube too - adds to the snappy feel. If you haven't changed the tube yet, do it at the same time as the flash. You will be very happy!

 

https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-2C0262400000-Grip-Assembly/dp/B005C59NO2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1540346311&sr=8-3&keywords=r6+throttle+tube

 

BTW, I never rev matched on any of my many previous motorcycles until the FZ-07. I learned how quickly as I didn't want to get into a dangerous situation. Since the flash, I never rev match anymore on the FZ.

 

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RedReaper
13 minutes ago, FZ07R WaNaB said:

Good question actually. I had an adjustment period where I missed the erratic throttle. It didn't take me long to realize that it was actually snappier but in a smooth way. Plus you really need to get the R6 throttle tube too - adds to the snappy feel. If you haven't changed the tube yet, do it at the same time as the flash. You will be very happy!

 

https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-2C0262400000-Grip-Assembly/dp/B005C59NO2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1540346311&sr=8-3&keywords=r6+throttle+tube

 

BTW, I never rev matched on any of my many previous motorcycles until the FZ-07. I learned how quickly as I didn't want to get into a dangerous situation. Since the flash, I never rev match anymore on the FZ.

 

1st things first, what WaNaB said, I swapped to the R6 throttle tube(although I did it after exhaust and powercommander) and my throttle is so much better than it was before. W.O.T. is a lot earlier and the control/ability to rev match is entirely cleaned up in comparison the first 1000 miles on the bike. No more of that kinda choppy/jumping when you give it a little romp.

 

That said, I have the Akrapovic full carbon system and it sounds better than my buddies same bike setup with a 2brothers exhaust. Much throatier and meaner. It can be a little loud, but if you stay in low RPMs(like 3 to 4k or around eco) I've never had any sound issues.

 

I haven't had a full dynotune done, but I've heard that it's best to go in and ask for throttle response. That was off a few youtube videos and from the parts dealer I bought my setup from.

Edited by RedReaper
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Stephenms

I think it's just something I have to feel for myself! My favorite thing about my daily ride to and from work is rev matching though. Whats the reasoning behind you not rev matching? Just so smooth there's no reason to?

 

RedReaper, I've been drawn to the Akrapovic Carbon since I first saw it, a local FZ group (07/09/10) said it's the best bang for you buck all the way around. They mentioned that videos don't do it any justice to the pure throatie V8-ish/Harley sound to it and now it's my final decision to get it.

 

its actually difficult to describe this bike to someone who's never ridden one. The throttle response really is very choppy. It's just something I'm so accustomed too that I don't give it any second thought.

 

I remember when I first bought it and drove it home (let me remind you this is my first ever motorcycle ride, after the learners course Buells.) I kept down shifting at the wrong times and would always feel the pedals pulse, cause of ABS. I learned to rev match that same week and haven't no stopped since.

Edited by Stephenms
Added stuff late, sorrynotsorry
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RedReaper

When I test rode the dealer bike, I loved the feel but I noticed the throttle there too. It feels like it's something to do with going in and out of eco, because on my bike it's not completely gone but it's significantly reduced. 

 

Funny thing about the sound is that I heard it on their website when I was picking at the parts shop, and thought, "Man that sounds great," but nothing matched when I put it on and then started the bike and I was just like "Holy Sh*t!"

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sansnombre

A while back, I was talking to one of the main tuners who post here on this website, and they said that on an FZ10, they can see a +10HP change with baffle out, vs baffle in. I thought that was a misprint and asked him about it, and he confirmed that on that bike, with that pipe and a proper tune, the baffle out/in had a significant effect on power.

 

I think on the 07 the difference is not so dramatic, but I point this out to show that baffle out/in can have a significant effect.

 

To me, it's quality of the exhaust sound and if the pipe gets to be too loud. I have found that baffle out is too loud on the Yosh pipe and the Akro Carbon, and I ride with the baffle in. On the Arrow (long one), it was too quiet with the baffle in and too loud with it out, so I modified the baffle to somewhere in between. I didn't notice any difference in power.

 

Looking at the posted dyno runs thus far, it seems baffle out can have a minor difference in power (esp at the top), but, again, it comes at the expense of obnoxiously loud.

 

That said, nothing was as loud and obnoxious as my old GPz550 with a Kerker KR pipe that was fully unbaffled - my friends could hear me coming from a mile away. It lasted a very short while . . .

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Stephenms

In case you guys were curious, I got a response from 2WDW about the baffle in/out debacle: "The FZ-07's actually have better performance with the baffle IN on both the Akrapovic and Yoshimura exhaust systems! Removing the baffle causes too much of an increase in exhaust diameter and causes an increase in back-pressure due to reduced exhaust pulse velocity. You would not need to retune the ECU if you wanted to remove the baffle, but it simply won't run as well without it in place."

 

Excellent explanation from Nels. Definitely appreciated.

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RedReaper
1 hour ago, Stephenms said:

In case you guys were curious, I got a response from 2WDW about the baffle in/out debacle: "The FZ-07's actually have better performance with the baffle IN on both the Akrapovic and Yoshimura exhaust systems! Removing the baffle causes too much of an increase in exhaust diameter and causes an increase in back-pressure due to reduced exhaust pulse velocity. You would not need to retune the ECU if you wanted to remove the baffle, but it simply won't run as well without it in place."

 

Excellent explanation from Nels. Definitely appreciated.

Good information! Thanks for the update

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phanomenal07
2 hours ago, Stephenms said:

In case you guys were curious, I got a response from 2WDW about the baffle in/out debacle: "The FZ-07's actually have better performance with the baffle IN on both the Akrapovic and Yoshimura exhaust systems! Removing the baffle causes too much of an increase in exhaust diameter and causes an increase in back-pressure due to reduced exhaust pulse velocity. You would not need to retune the ECU if you wanted to remove the baffle, but it simply won't run as well without it in place."

 

Excellent explanation from Nels. Definitely appreciated.

What if you got the tune with the baffle out and decide to put it back in? Will you need a reflash then?

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RedReaper
12 minutes ago, phanomenal07 said:

What if you got the tune with the baffle out and decide to put it back in? Will you need a reflash then?

It doesn't exactly clear that question up, but I would imagine it wouldn't matter much either way based on the response. It would be more specific to the exhaust you have. That's due to the back-pressure and pulse velocity mentioned above.

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Stephenms

It's implied that they ALWAYS tune with baffle-in, unless specified before hand. I'm most likely going to specify when I send mine in, just to be safe. But from the information at hand I don't think it'll make a huge difference either way.

 

I'm excited for a tune and exhaust now, it's next on my list

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FZ07R WaNaB
4 hours ago, Stephenms said:

In case you guys were curious, I got a response from 2WDW about the baffle in/out debacle: "The FZ-07's actually have better performance with the baffle IN on both the Akrapovic and Yoshimura exhaust systems! Removing the baffle causes too much of an increase in exhaust diameter and causes an increase in back-pressure due to reduced exhaust pulse velocity. You would not need to retune the ECU if you wanted to remove the baffle, but it simply won't run as well without it in place."

 

Excellent explanation from Nels. Definitely appreciated.

 

I'm curious if that response came from Nels or someone else at 2WDW. I can't imagine Nels saying that. Reason being that a  couple of years ago, 2WDW was surprised when they hit their highest HP yet with the Akra Ti with the baffle out. You had to run premium gas but it was getting 2 HP bump from the baffle being out. Here's the original posting on that:

 

https://fz07.org/thread/4910/fz-07-akrapovic-ti/

 

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phanomenal07

so I dropped the baffle screw inside the muffler. Does anybody know if this is bad and I have to remove the screw right away or can I just leave it in there? It isn’t in the actual exhaust system itself. Just where the rubber gromet is in the end cap

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DewMan
10 minutes ago, phanomenal07 said:

so I dropped the baffle screw inside the muffler. Does anybody know if this is bad and I have to remove the screw right away or can I just leave it in there? It isn’t in the actual exhaust system itself. Just where the rubber gromet is in the end cap

Did I miss where you mentioned what exhaust this is?

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phanomenal07
2 minutes ago, DewMan said:

Did I miss where you mentioned what exhaust this is?

Oh sorry. Don’t know why I keep leaving that out. It’s the Yoshi. R77

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