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howworkclutch

Track eRgos

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howworkclutch

Coaches keep telling me to get off the seat- I do. But looking at trackday photos, its obvious I'm not off the seat enough. I swapped bars for renthal SE's and they're lower, but so much wider. Stock pegs/controls.

 

I'm getting a new bike for the street and want to convert the z to dedicated track bike. I wont be racing so I can skunkworks-out all I want. Thats cool, but I really need to solve this ergos problem.

 

5'9" 185lbs. 30 inch inseam. Typical middle-aged belly and limited spinal flexibility.

My buddies say I pull away in the corners, but I know I could go even faster if I could get down into the corner. See pic.

I have a windshield from another bike- need to fab brackets. Thinking about pulling the fake air-scoops off so I can do clip-ons.

 

PRE_CMP-20181006171940-2721.jpg

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mossrider

Good for you!

 

I'm no coach but I am the poster child for middle aged Shrek stiff back belly rider. I've also been thru several riding/racing schools. A couple things I've learned along the way that helped me.

 

Relax. This gives the machine the ability to do what it was engineered to do. Tensing up on the controls impairs the bike's ability to corner, contributes to running wide in turns and reduces cornering and drive traction.  Ride like you would a horse, with your lower body controlling the machine in this case. Slight toe pressure on the inside peg with corresponding inward inward knee pressure from the outside knee on the side of the tank will pull the nose over and into your turn smoothly and allow the brakes and tires to do their thing for you.

 

Keep your upper body loose and your elbows bent. This keeps your upper body forward and allows you to put your chin over your inside hand. If you sit upright or lock your inside elbow you make yourself counter lean like in your pic above. Tensing looks up the steering head causing loss of feel and is a quick way to lock the front wheel. Use your lower body to grip the tank/bike during braking to keep the loads out of the steering head thus out of the suspension. 

 

Hope this helps.

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howworkclutch

should have mentioned- thats the exit for an extremely tight turn. greater than 90 degrees. the track could use another 4ft on the left.. we were just kissing the rumble strip (why on earth did they do this?) coming into that straight.

so the odd body position is due to me shifting left to stand the bike back up. of course I don't get a whole lot of shift because i'm so damned upright.

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howworkclutch

Ok so i turned the risers around and flipped the bars. Its not a final solution for a myriad of reasons. But it did let me get a feel for the potential. 

 

Went for a quick blast and felt like i could go 200mph around a dime. I can shift my weight down inside and get off the seat. 

 

I need a cheap solution to the damned tank cover. I have a front fairing that i really want to use. I dont want a half-fast plate for half-fast clipons. I would love to drop coin on the fairing kit but i dont have it to drop. Not now anyway. And to be honest, i want lights so i can ride it with my chopper bros (cause that would just really active their almonds). Those guys ride home built bikes so a fz07R would be worth a lot of street cred :)

 

I have half a mind to take a 1” router bit and make two passes on those damned fake air scoops. Then zip-tie stitch it back together just so i can get full lock with clipons :)

 

Ideas are welcome.  

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mossrider
Just now, howworkclutch said:

I have half a mind to take a 1” router bit and make two passes on those damned fake air scoops. Then zip-tie stitch it back together just so i can get full lock with clipons :)

 

Ideas are welcome.  

You're on the right track being willing to fiddle with stuff.  I wouldn't neccesariilly jump straight to clipons for street use as they create some issues but lower/narrower superbike bars are more aggressive than stock and should fit with stock paraphernalia and give you a little more tilt.  

 

 

 

Who am I kidding with all this restraint b.s. Check my posts, hack it up and let er buck!

😈

 

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Beemer

Avoid the hassles, save up some money and buy a used R6 for the track and strip that FZ down to make it lighter and to look more like a home built bike. Make it ugly, Frankenstein it, grunge it out, use a chainsaw on those scoops! I'm serious, make it mean and nasty!!

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howworkclutch

i was all set to rip into the plastics but... i put the stock bars back on and found that with a little practice i could get better body position.

 

the renthals are just too damned wide.

 

i watched a kid on an rc 390 go like stink. i had no idea those little pea-shooters were so damned quick. he squirts out of a corner and just hauls down the straights like a boss. the inline4's pass him once above 110 or so, but i never could get around him on the fz07 (i brake too early- total chicken).

 

if i had spare coin, i think i'd go with the ktm for a trackbike. those skinny tires should be good and cheap

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r1limited

Be Spagetti

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r1limited
On 10/13/2018 at 5:43 AM, Beemer said:

Avoid the hassles, save up some money and buy a used R6 for the track

More truth,

 

Part of the entire ergo on the track is getting a motorcyle you fit on comfortably and is somewhat purpose built.  The FZ is not intended nor was designed to be a track bike PERIOD END OF STORY.  To make it a track bike, one must put in 2 - 3 K to make it somewhat enjoyable.

 

R3, R6, SV, all are able and willing participants far better designed at the get go to be a good track bike, hell even a SM style bike would be far better than the FZ.   But who am I?  just anothe voice in the cybernet sqwaking about whatever. 

 

As my rant moves forward

 

Ergos is about how your body fits on the bike and how you adjust yourself comfortably on said bike.  Simply changing the locatin of your foot can change the feel of the handlebars and your entire body position.  Location of levers will also change your feel when entering and exiting corners.  So two things (a) do not mistake Ergos with Riding style (b) ergos goes hand in hand with riding style comfort

 

My opinion, maybe you butt off the seat is hindered by the fact your feet and legs dont fit that position well for you?  Just a thought, rear sets may indeed assist you in make that transition from left to right bun and being able to slide more off that arse and to the leg.  This in turn will allow for a leaner body angle (AKA LOOK IN THE MIRROR) feel with your head angled down and closer to center.  I could go on, but the gists of it all is Ergo vs Riding style, and style comes with hours of saddle time, and ergos lets those hours be with more comfort on the bike.  If you are fighting your body to be comfortable on the bike, your defeating the purpose

Edited by r1limited
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botticelli

Yes, as other have said, you may have an easier time on a more "track" focused bike.... but I'm a big fan of riding the wheels off what you have. On the track it is when no if you will bin it. When that happens maybe go for something else, but in my book the 07 rules.

 

learning to move, is learning to move, despite the bike underneath you.

 

Im 5'11" and 230. 30in inseam. It can be done, get off the bike, get much more off the bike.

 

It looks to me that your adding a lot of lean to the bike and having a blast doing it. No feelers and the peg is almost on the ground. You probably cant lean it too much more, but if you get off the bike more you can go faster for the same lean. It will let you lean the bike a lot lot less for a given speed, or better yet go a lot faster at the same lean angle.

 

As other have stated and told you, I would encourage you to get off the the bike more. Hang that ass out in the breeze. WAY WAY out there. The FZ07 has a wide seat and you can take advantage. I always try to have at least a cheek hanging out there.

 

You looked crossed up in the photo. Your torso yes has moved over a bit to the inside of the bike, but it looks like your still trying to keep your upper body on the middle of the bike.

 

two pieces of advice that helped me to get off the bike,

 

1. Move my head to the outside, try to kiss your hand(or outside mirror), look at where the guy behind you hand is respect to his right hand, right over it.

 

2. Open your outside elbow, it will force your torso over to the inside, your "ass" will get the idea and start following the torso over there.

 

 

Here is a few of me doing my best to keep my ass off the saddle and on the inside outside arm and elbow extended as much as I can!

 

Look at my suit zipper in relation to the headlight. Look at my helmet vs the mirror.

 

 

 

Looking good my man! the more "husky distinguished gentlemen" on 07's the better.

 

~Pete

Screenshot 2017-07-31 19.32.59.png

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howworkclutch
22 minutes ago, r1limited said:

My opinion, maybe you butt off the seat is hindered by the fact your feet and legs dont fit that position well for you? 

 

I have to admit that part of the problem is experience. I've only done 3 track days- still getting accustomed to shifting weight.

With the low renthals, I couldn't get off the bike to the right. i couldn't grasp the throttle because of arm alignment, so I never shifted very far off the right. Tires tell the tale- a quarter inch of un-worn tire on the left (and my left turns were fast af). Wear goes all the way to the edge on the right- the shoulder is even scruffy. Not as fast around rights.

on the stock bars, i can still throttle when off the seat- so i'm out of excuses. i just need to work on it some more.

i flipped the renthals for shiggles once. that made for some mad cornering, but the downturn was too much and it was very hard on the wrists. once off the saddle an deep into a turn it felt great but riding straight-up was torture.

for now, i'm just going to leave the bike alone and enjoy it. making excuses for lack-of-experience is a rich mans hobby.

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botticelli

230342931_Screenshot2018-10-3010_25_30.thumb.png.4db1eb4cbb443fcd299295fdeccbb38e.png

And my big ole beer gut.

 

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r1limited
3 minutes ago, howworkclutch said:

Tires tell the tale- a quarter inch of un-worn tire on the left

That dont mean shet.  Seriously do not and never use your tire wear as an indicator of how well you are doing.  Seriously, that whole chicken shet bar mentality burns my hide when I hear this from people.  You are doing just fine with 3 track days under your belt, you have at least if I am reading this right

  1. Validated your comfort level on the bike
  2. Seeking advise and planning on chaging your ergonomics on that bike
  3. Seeking and asking advise on style
  4. Thinkin and planning on putting all 3 above together.

Suspension setup, Tires (and Pressure) all have significant changes based on weatherof the day, track condition etc.  Your ergo will change as well when you mark the suspension to fit the conditions, its all science

 

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botticelli
2 minutes ago, r1limited said:

That dont mean shet.  Seriously do not and never use your tire wear as an indicator of how well you are doing.  Seriously, that whole chicken shet bar mentality burns my hide when I hear this from people.  You are doing just fine with 3 track days under your belt, you have at least if I am reading this right

  1. Validated your comfort level on the bike
  2. Seeking advise and planning on chaging your ergonomics on that bike
  3. Seeking and asking advise on style
  4. Thinkin and planning on putting all 3 above together.

Suspension setup, Tires (and Pressure) all have significant changes based on weatherof the day, track condition etc.  Your ergo will change as well when you mark the suspension to fit the conditions, its all science

 

totally agree! I can have a great day or session and have big ass chicken srips, and on a less than stellar day or slightly colder, or PSI or or 100 other things, have fully scrubbed in rubber.

 

Pictures and practice, rinse and repeat.

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howworkclutch

Getting a bit better- stock bars. I just need to work on body position- can't wait for next season.

 

better-technique.JPG

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apexprophoto
On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 11:18 AM, howworkclutch said:

Getting a bit better- stock bars. I just need to work on body position- can't wait for next season.

 

better-technique.JPG

nice photo...clears throat

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mt7fan

Your body position is against the corner. Get your right elbow down, bite the bar, let your body hang on the left knee on tank. Dive deep in the corner.

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r1limited

Be spaghetti. 

Only advise would be, take a day, go out and watch the fast guys through the corners, watch entry, watch apex and watch exit.  Listen, listen to when the throttle is cut, when it is back on and the rise (Roll On ) of RPMs.  Make mental notes of location on entry and exit and make those your targets.  Go slower to go faster

 

Edited by r1limited
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apexprophoto

@howworkclutch

Next time buy some :)  Cheers

A47I8821-1469.jpg

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howworkclutch
22 hours ago, apexprophoto said:

@howworkclutch

Next time buy some :)  Cheers

A47I8821-1469.jpg

Sorry but VIR blows my budget out. I don't have Shetty-bux 😁

Do CMP next year?

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Beemer

Pics or it didn't happen.

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cornerslider
On 10/30/2018 at 11:02 AM, howworkclutch said:

i was all set to rip into the plastics but... i put the stock bars back on and found that with a little practice i could get better body position.

 

the renthals are just too damned wide.

 

i watched a kid on an rc 390 go like stink. i had no idea those little pea-shooters were so damned quick. he squirts out of a corner and just hauls down the straights like a boss. the inline4's pass him once above 110 or so, but i never could get around him on the fz07 (i brake too early- total chicken).

 

if i had spare coin, i think i'd go with the ktm for a trackbike. those skinny tires should be good and cheap

My previous track bike was a RC390. The ONLY reason I sold it was I have neck problems, and couldn't ride it effectively on track anymore. The Ducati guys aways pulled me on the straights, but I could catch them little by little in corners. They were dumbfounded???? The RC is cheap to own, and REALLY good on tires. 

Edited by cornerslider

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howworkclutch
On 11/23/2018 at 8:55 AM, Beemer said:

Pics or it didn't happen.

lol the irony of this

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wmhjr

First caveat - if you've only got 3 days at the track under your belt, don't be too hard on yourself.  Body position is a bitch to develop.  You think you're Rossi or Marquez hanging off the bike - then you see a pic and you look like the wicked witch riding her broomstick sitting straight up and down.  Happens to everyone.  A few things to supplement what others have said - this coming from a coach and racer.  This past year I've spent a lot of time at the track as an example.  NJMP, Summit Point, VIR, PittRace, Road Atlanta, Road America, Mid Ohio, NCBike, Jennings GP.  I average over 50 days a year.  These are just my suggestions - as well as YCRS techniques:

 

1)  Lean angle is your enemy.  Period.  You use the minimum amount of lean angle required in order to negotiate a corner at a given speed.  Body position is the means by which we reduce lean angle.  Lean angle gives you less of a contact patch, scrubs tires, and increases risk.  If you're not an Advanced/Expert rider and you don't have at least "some" "chicken strips" on your tires, I can absolutely guarantee you that you're using too much lean angle, and that at some point your enthusiasm is going to outrun your talent - and you'll be on the ground.  By your pics, you are carrying FAR too much lean angle.  Why do the fastest guys carry so much lean angle?  Because at the speed they are running (which is light years faster than you) they've run out of anything else BESIDES lean angle.  They've already maximized body position inputs.  Think of it as trying to keep as much lean angle as possible in reserve.  Use ONLY what is required.  I could get into the whole "100 points of grip" thing but I'm trying to keep it simple.

 

2)  The FZ/MT without aftermarket clip ons will be hard to get really aggressive body position on.  It can be done, but it will more resemble a Motard because of the geometry.

 

3)  The entire purpose of "getting off the bike" is to weight the inside peg of the bike.  The more you weight that inside peg, the less lean angle the bike requires to navigate the same corner at the same speed.  The only way to really weight that inside peg is to get your body off the seat and off the bike.  The only way to do it "relaxed" allowing you to really control the bike is to not get crossed up, and to have your bike and your body parallel to each other.  

 

4)  In those corners, get your butt back, and relax your arms.  BEND that INSIDE elbow.  That allows your upper body to drop down and your body to stay parallel to the bike.  Have your inside foot pointed toward the inside of the turn, and have the end of the peg right under the ball of your foot - then PUSH that inside peg down.  Hold the inside grip like a screwdriver.  Relax the outside arm, and let it just drop comfortably on the tank.  

 

5)  Don't forget your corner entry!  Be smooth on the controls.  Pick up your brakes and carry them lighter - but longer.  Good body position won't help if you give up the brakes abruptly in the corner, allowing the front suspension to unload, shrinking your tire contact patch, and extending the geometry of the bike making it less easy to turn.  As you progress, hopefully you'll start to extend trail braking to at or near the apex (depending on if it's an entry or exit corner).  But that's for down the road....

 

6)  Your butt should almost never - ever - ever - be in the middle of the seat on most tracks.  Example:  When I exit the carousel (T17-19) at PittRace, I never move my ass back from the left side of the bike all the way down the straight so I'm prepared for entry to T1.  

 

The two most important things however are this.  First of all, pick one or two things to work on every session. No more than that.  If you blow a corner, etc, then your lap starts on the next corner.  Don't let it detract from your efforts.  Second?  Ignore all the wannabe fast guys that talk about getting a knee down, or an elbow down, or worse yet - chicken strips.  Focus on your lines, smooth inputs, and body position.  Then when your knee hits the ground you'll be surprised.  It's not a goal.  The FZ/MT is a very capable machine on the track to run at Novice to Intermediate pace without modification.  I'm 6'2" and have zero issues racing that chassis.  

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