rennstall Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 Hi guys, My name is Daniel and I am part of a Formula student racing team Rennstall Esslingen (www.rennstall-esslingen.de). This season we are building a new powertrain unit based on a 2014 Yamaha MT-07 engine. We are also adding a Rotrex supercharger... The reason I am writing here is because we have an issue with the initial power-up of the engine after the rebuild that includes custom engine internals. We are going to run the engine with a Bosch MS4 Sport ECU or a MoTec M400 and some different sensors but we are unable to access the original Yamaha ECU and its base Fuel and Ignition maps. There is a lot of information on the internet but any maps that are available are locked to a specific SW and format. The big question is how can we get hold of the base/stock fuel and ignition maps in a neutral data format so we can create our maps on the custom ECU. We would greatly appreciate any help or suggestion. Thank you for your time! P.S. Attached is a little photo for those interested to see the engine in an unusual place :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedriver1 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 Unfortunately, I can't help with the project but I was in the FSAE team at my university for a couple years. Your car looks great so far, good luck with the ECU tuning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemer Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 I can't help either (sorry!) but I couldn't help commenting on the cart. I'm not so sure I would want to be in the seat of that thing when it goes into "Plaid Speed". - Space Balls, the movie. Beemer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stev74 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Awesome project. I always wanted to look into that engine mapping programming. Unfortunately I have no place for doing it. Anyway I wish you all the best with the project!!! Grüße aus Wien! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 how do the TuneECU guys do it then? For a sanctioned effort like this my first call would be to Yamaha DE/EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rennstall Posted June 10, 2018 Author Share Posted June 10, 2018 Thank you for cool comments. The supercharged engine is installed dragged and tested on an electric dyno where we check that new sensors, internals and compressor are running smooth before we let it fire up and put a brand new map done from scratch. However we have an N/A engine installed in the car at the moment for some evaluations. Making a final map is not a problem however the Start Map is quite hard to create from scratch and also the atmospheric engine should run just fine if we have access to stock maps. Also it is important for us to have a base reference from the original ECU. So any suggestions whom to ask for such a map would be well appreciated. Are the people that have a re-map tool for that bike able to access the maps from the original ECU? P.S. another small photo with the full Aero package for those interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Global Moderator mjh937 Posted June 11, 2018 Global Moderator Share Posted June 11, 2018 @2wheeldynoworks has done a lot of ECU tuning for this bike. They might be able to help you out with a stock map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member norcal616 Posted June 11, 2018 Premium Member Share Posted June 11, 2018 majority of available maps I see online go by "AFR values" - the OEM stock fuel/ign values are considered "proprietary information" ... lots of stock(AFR) maps available from PCV, FTech, Woolich... and ECUs need a "bin file key" to read/rewrite... or run a piggyback style tuner to skip the need for a "bin file key"... also the EU spec bikes have an engine immobilizer, which require EU spec maps... 2015 fz-07- Hordpower Edition...2015 fj-09- 120whp- Graves Exhaust w/Woolich Race Kit- tuned by 2WDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rennstall Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 45 minutes ago, norcal616 said: majority of available maps I see online go by "AFR values" - the OEM stock fuel/ign values are considered "proprietary information" ... lots of stock(AFR) maps available from PCV, FTech, Woolich... and ECUs need a "bin file key" to read/rewrite... or run a piggyback style tuner to skip the need for a "bin file key"... also the EU spec bikes have an engine immobilizer, which require EU spec maps... Hey norcal616, Got your point. We are using a custom ECU (Bosch MS4 Sport) that is fully open and we can create a map from scratch. We just need reference "base" values that somewhat guarantee a safe start. So any raw data from these guys (PCV, FTech, Woolich) is more than welcome. The format can even be Excel sheet... Thanks for the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member norcal616 Posted June 11, 2018 Premium Member Share Posted June 11, 2018 http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/downloads/powercommander_downloads.aspx?ProdType=Power Commander V.. this software will allow you to view the maps in the PCV library... FTECU.com has quite a collection of maps... TPS vs RPM my personal idea is to contact Mr.Hordpower at hordpower.com since he makes an open pod style airbox for the FZ-07- ... 99% of the maps available are based on the stock airbox... 2015 fz-07- Hordpower Edition...2015 fj-09- 120whp- Graves Exhaust w/Woolich Race Kit- tuned by 2WDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyow5 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 2 hours ago, rennstall said: Hey norcal616, Got your point. We are using a custom ECU (Bosch MS4 Sport) that is fully open and we can create a map from scratch. We just need reference "base" values that somewhat guarantee a safe start. So any raw data from these guys (PCV, FTech, Woolich) is more than welcome. The format can even be Excel sheet... Thanks for the answer. When I worked for Bosch Motorsport in the US (but also in Germany for a summer), starting from 0 was fairly common. Especially since you have new internals and the supercharger, a base map won't really save you much time in the long run. You'll be far better off building an engine model with a simulation and then using that data to populate the map. The judges will like that approach more, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rennstall Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 2 hours ago, norcal616 said: http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/downloads/powercommander_downloads.aspx?ProdType=Power Commander V.. this software will allow you to view the maps in the PCV library... FTECU.com has quite a collection of maps... TPS vs RPM my personal idea is to contact Mr.Hordpower at hordpower.com since he makes an open pod style airbox for the FZ-07- ... 99% of the maps available are based on the stock airbox... Thanks! Already sent him an email. The PVC gives little info as the format of the maps is not RAW. We cannot see any meaningful values. The FTECU we cannot access without bought HW. This picture you've sent looks very delicious... If you could just send us an Excel export or good quality photo... 38 minutes ago, cyow5 said: When I worked for Bosch Motorsport in the US (but also in Germany for a summer), starting from 0 was fairly common. Especially since you have new internals and the supercharger, a base map won't really save you much time in the long run. You'll be far better off building an engine model with a simulation and then using that data to populate the map. The judges will like that approach more, too. You are correct and that is how we do it :). But the map we need for the atmospheric engine which is already mounted. The supercharged one is still being evaluated on dyno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyow5 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 29 minutes ago, rennstall said: You are correct and that is how we do it :). But the map we need for the atmospheric engine which is already mounted. The supercharged one is still being evaluated on dyno. Can you not re-run the simulation with the motor as it is now, and use that generated map? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member norcal616 Posted June 11, 2018 Premium Member Share Posted June 11, 2018 https://ftecu.com/downloadrequest/... i used this over a year ago when I was chasing my own tail with tuning... 2015 fz-07- Hordpower Edition...2015 fj-09- 120whp- Graves Exhaust w/Woolich Race Kit- tuned by 2WDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rennstall Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 47 minutes ago, norcal616 said: https://ftecu.com/downloadrequest/... i used this over a year ago when I was chasing my own tail with tuning... Yeah I saw that but it requires an account. To make such you need to have the HW connected to your PC... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member norcal616 Posted June 11, 2018 Premium Member Share Posted June 11, 2018 Just now, rennstall said: Yeah I saw that but it requires an account. To make such you need to have the HW connected to your PC... gotcha..they must have changed things in the last year... Im sorry I cannot offer more pictures, I only feel comfortable sharing ideas where to get data... 2015 fz-07- Hordpower Edition...2015 fj-09- 120whp- Graves Exhaust w/Woolich Race Kit- tuned by 2WDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 I'm not following why your project can't find a measily $500 for FTECU or similar hardware. Has Yamaha EU/DE ignored your requests or told you to go away? I'm clearly no SME on this but do all these aftermarket tuning solutions simply modify 'overlay' maps and nobody actually can read the underlying base set(s)? Is it not sufficient to apply a 'zero' map and then provide arbitrary signals (RPM, TPS, O2) and read the outputs and thereby "deduce" the factory map? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rennstall Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 So norcal616 thanks a lot :). Mr. Hordpower saved the day, really nice guy. Thanks also for all other comments and opinions. For those interested, today the Supercharged MT-07 race engine produced around 140 Nm at 6000 RPM on the electric dyno. And we are limiting the throttle for now since some of the new sensors and the ECU still don't feel at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stickshift Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 4 hours ago, rennstall said: For those interested, today the Supercharged MT-07 race engine produced around 140 Nm at 6000 RPM on the electric dyno. And we are limiting the throttle for now since some of the new sensors and the ECU still don't feel at home. Great result so far. Very interesting project, please keep us updated on engine performance on this forum. I'm very keen to hear the technical details of the engine build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topazsparrow Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 On 6/12/2018 at 2:33 PM, rennstall said: So norcal616 thanks a lot :). Mr. Hordpower saved the day, really nice guy. Thanks also for all other comments and opinions. For those interested, today the Supercharged MT-07 race engine produced around 140 Nm at 6000 RPM on the electric dyno. And we are limiting the throttle for now since some of the new sensors and the ECU still don't feel at home. More pictures please!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member norcal616 Posted June 15, 2018 Premium Member Share Posted June 15, 2018 140nm = approx 105 ft/lbs thats impressive amount of TQ- its almost double the amount a NA motor puts down... I do know a turbo -09(CP3 motor) will put down around 110 ft/lbs(at the wheel) at 6000 rpms... 2015 fz-07- Hordpower Edition...2015 fj-09- 120whp- Graves Exhaust w/Woolich Race Kit- tuned by 2WDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rennstall Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 For all interested, I promise I will try to upload some pics and maybe a video. But right now we are not allowed to since we are in preparation phase and leaders don't allow media sharing. The NA engine runs really good in the chassis and the sound is also good . We can't wait to see how the mid-range torque from the charger will affect the performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 I know this is a bit late ( I missed this one), but if I get this right it is only the initial start that is a problem. Seeing as it is supercharged and the throttle bodies are just that, why not just an inlet bypass for starting and a solenoid inlet shutoff when it starts actually going. You could use it for normal idling and switch in the super when you want to get going? It's a super after all not a turbo. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmoney Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 On 6/10/2018 at 9:54 PM, Beemer said: I can't help either (sorry!) but I couldn't help commenting on the cart. I'm not so sure I would want to be in the seat of that thing when it goes into "Plaid Speed". "> - Space Balls, the movie. Advance to ludicrous speed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.