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Engine damage


faffi

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markstertt

Mobil 1 'car' oil is excellent oil for cars...only one poster even mentioned zinc/phosphorous additives that are still present in motorcycle specific oils but have been removed from car oils due to the fact that these additives are poisonous to catalytic converters. The interface between cam and lifter is probably the highest pressure/wear surface in an engine. The car manufacturers had to redesign engines to stop premature wear due to the lack of the anti wear additives zinc and phosphorous. Roller rockers, roller tappets....roller everything in the valve gear makes our modern car engines survive...Amsoil (among some others) still offer zinc/phosphorous compounded oils for our older flat tappet cammed cars of yesteryear.

Motorcycle oils maintain varying levels of zinc/phos necessary due to the design of our motorcycles top ends, almost all have some form of flat tappet/ bucket cam configuration or cam and rocker arm with a sliding interface. Run car oil in your bike at your own risk.

 

Big ends ( rods) and crankshaft bearings whether a plain bearing or rolling element do not require the high pressure additives that cams and lifters do so this argument that they should also be wasted like this guys cams doesn't make any sense...sorry.

 

Could his cams have failed anyway with out the oil change?...of course, as others have mentioned, improper heat treat, oiling problems etc. are often issues in such cases. I've seen all kinds of cams with all kinds of strange wear patterns so can't or wont say his story is bull. Extenuating circumstances combined with car oil?...I'm not trying to explain his issue but am only trying to shed a little light on the oil aspect.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, faffi said:

What he said was that he switched to Mobil 1 after 300 miles and shortly after the top end went.

To be fair

Did he

Redline the engine one to many miss shifts

Redline the eingine one to many burnouts

Redline the engine one to many 1st gear wheelies

Redline the engine


WHat oil did he use before

How many miles per change

Did he change the filter each time

How many miles on bike

Did he REDLINE THE ENGINE

 

As said far to many variables in between 1st and 5th

 

 

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria

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Redline will cause alot of issue especially if the engine was poorly maintained, dont matter of on a dyno the damage was done already case closed period end of story.  Ya know what salt or sugar does to cam lobes?  ya know why there are motorcyle blends and most OEMs will tell you Car oil is not fing good for a bike?>

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria

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20 hours ago, faffi said:

I've changed the topic, although the title didn't positively state the damage was caused by the oil, only that it took place with Mobil 1 in the engine.

 

The owner thinks the risk is too great to try the oil again. Note that it was oil for cars that potentially could lack the film strength to withstand a 13000 rpm motorcycle engine with plenty of cam lift. If so, the type of oil rather than the brand would then likely be the culprit - I brought it up merely because Mobil 1 is typically recognized as the best there is, yet here was an engine that for one reason or the other failed while using Mobil 1. So I found it intriguing. You can also find tons of reports of spun main bearings on Subarus using Mobil 1, but again it is more likely a result of a combination of too thin oil and a poor design rather than the brand of oil. Still heavily debated, though.

 

The owner of the 10R is not reluctant to use Mobil products - in fact, he has often mentioned them as maker of good oils - but that he will only run motorcycle specific oils in his motorcycle engines.

Thanks for changin that @faffi  I could have done it myself but I prefer not to be a Nazi. 

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please correct me if im wrong...

 

I know cams dont always have same "lift", "duration", "shape", etc on both exhaust and intake... Is the ZX-10R a dual grind can with diffrent "lift" heights between intake/exhaust? if so I can see 1mm being possible if that owner measured an intake cam and an exhaust cam... 

2015 fz-07- Hordpower Edition...2015 fj-09- 120whp- Graves Exhaust w/Woolich Race Kit- tuned by 2WDW
 

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markstertt

It would appear he is measuring lobes on the same shaft so doubt an issue but, yes, intakes and exhausts can be either symmetrical or asymmetrical. If this owner doesn't know the difference between which lobes or specs he's measuring, then anything's possible but I'm assuming he does.

 

The most critical time in the life of a cam is the initial run in...the first minutes of your engines first start and why cam lube is so important on a rebuild with a new cam and lifters. In an ideal world you would first start your engine with  lower valve spring pressures to help break in your cam/lifters, then set the pressures up for high rpm running later in life.

 

I'm not convinced that the early dyno runs, if done correctly, were harmful, if what I've been led to believe is true and that is that the factory runs all our engines up to full power before shipping....any one know if this is indeed a fact? 

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42 minutes ago, markstertt said:

 

I'm not convinced that the early dyno runs, if done correctly, were harmful, if what I've been led to believe is true and that is that the factory runs all our engines up to full power before shipping....any one know if this is indeed a fact? 

According to Revzilla, Motus does

 

Screen shot 2018-05-16 at 1.55.14 PM.png

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Even as far back as 1969, BMW would take their freshly built R75/5 directly off the assembly line and run them - cold - on a dyno, revving them right up through the gears. Considering the much better oils and much better metallurgy as well as immensely better production quality, doing so with a modern engine is no sweat and in fact is done to every mass produced engine. 

 

BTW, that was how Yamaha discovered water leaks on their XZ550 Visions, by just strapping them on the dyno, revving the crap out of them to get the temps up quickly and watch for steam.

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46 minutes ago, faffi said:

BTW, that was how Yamaha discovered water leaks on their XZ550 Visions, by just strapping them on the dyno, revving the crap out of them to get the temps up quickly and watch for steam.

I saw that movie, that was awesome when godsirra squashed them dynos to death

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 5/16/2018 at 4:33 PM, r1limited said:

I saw that movie, that was awesome when godsirra squashed them dynos to death

Godsirra made kaijuice (see what I did there?!) out of Rodan and Mothra, he so bad-ass!

Beemer

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