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faffi

For those against mandatory training

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pattonme
2 hours ago, r1limited said:

I dont care what anyone says
If you cant pat your head and rub your belly at the same time you should not get a license for anything IMO

In R1's case it's chew gum and keep his posts on-topic while posting from his phone.

JK

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pattonme
2 hours ago, DewMan said:

In my state there is no licensing requirements to ride a scooter on public roads,

that's rather common. But said scooter has a legally mandated top speed (30MPH) and restrictions on time of day (no night) and choice of road. Admittedly it's damn easy to kill yourself at 30mph and put more than a dent in something too.


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rick

Can't do that here. If it's motorized, it's gotta pass safety inspection, registered, and insured - or stay off of public roads. 

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chademinent
15 hours ago, pattonme said:

MSF proper has no such position (or didn't) and I taught for 8 years. It might be CA DMV adopting the "everyone gets a participant trophy" nonsense to change the rules... Unlimited re-takes is fine just so long as the guy isn't a risk to others on the range. We (in IL and VA) could dismiss a student at any time if there were a danger to others. If the 4-time loser kept being failed because he kept falling over during the test, well that's the point. If you can't manage to stay upright, you haven't exhibited even the most basic of bike control skills. But frankly dropping the bike would have been endemic to his entire 2.5 day experience and if the instructors were unable to identity and help him solve his problem then they weren't doing their job! (unless he truly was unwilling to learn or physically compromised)

 

There were some students during my career who managed to "pass" the course (19 or less demerits) who clearly were not ready. My fellow instructors would have face to face with them and make it abundantly clear that they were strongly advised to get further training. Not a one had any problem admitting their woeful state of skill and happily engaged in follow-on work. The only couple of AHOles (brats or court-mandated) I had in my class failed spectacularly all by themselves - we didn't have to grudgingly pass them. Karma and all that.

 

Libertarians will argue that horse riding didn't require a permit. True. But the vanishing majority learned how to ride while under close supervision in a controlled environment. Getting thrown by a horse hurts a lot and you quickly learn or self-select out. Plus 1HP is a lot less lethal than 30 even if the meat horse weighs 2x as much a Rebel 250. Plus the meat horse has 2 eyes and a brain and is likely to have some input into the situation whereas a dumb metal machine has nothing similar.

 

 

Refering to R1s quote:

That's Bizarre they would pass everyone.  I took a MSF course 2.5 years ago here in MT and they dropped 3 people the first day and another the second.

Edited by chademinent

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Beemer

Another thing, no class in the world can give you good common sense to keep you and others out of trouble. You can't pay for it, you either have it or you don't and it's my opinion that it plays a very big part in peoples driving behaviors on the road because every day I see people do the dumbest sh*t. Who's doing anything about morons on the road? No one. I think the biggest problem is the view of authorities that everyone has the right to travel, dumb or not and do it in their own vehicle and no one wants to take that away from them, UNTIL they screw up bad and then by that time people are hurt, killed or maimed for life. Maybe as a society we are too kind when it comes to certain things. a month ago I was making a left turn onto a road and there in the lane I was going to turn into was this old man, peeking over the steering wheel and in my lane, the oncoming lane to him. What could I do? Report him? what good would that do? I had no video so taking him to court would be a waste of time with no proof, it's my word against his. how can people save others from themselves? Good luck trying, the system is on their side if they haven't actually caused an accident. I'm going back to bed. 😒

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Beemer

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Beemer
17 hours ago, rick said:

Hopefully, only his pride was hurt. And, thankfully he hurt no one else. 

 

Damn trees are always getting in the way   

 

 

 

 

George of the Jungle was one of my favorite cartoons! I had just started noticing girls at that age so Fella and Ursula dancing and dressed the way they were seemed pretty hot to me. |What a sexy cartoon that was for a kid.

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Beemer

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markstertt

I don't think I'm for mandatory training or over regulation but I am for some form of incentive (break on insurance rates? Something else?) that would induce people to voluntarily seek training. Courses such as are available now, no matter what, are better than no courses at all. I'd much rather someone realize up front (in a controlled environment) that maybe motorcycles aren't for them before they went out and purchased an R1 and killed or maimed themselves or some innocent on the street. We all suffer when this happens with higher insurance rates, product liability costs passed on to consumers etc.

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r1limited
20 hours ago, pattonme said:

MSF proper has no such position (or didn't) and I taught for 8 years. It might be CA DMV adopting the "everyone gets a participant trophy" nonsense to change the rules

As I noted, MSF is an agent of the DMV in Commifornia, yes they have to pass.  I will correct they do have 5 attempts I believe then they have to pay again, there is no fail in Commifornia


“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria

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shinyribs
7 hours ago, Beemer said:

George of the Jungle was one of my favorite cartoons! I had just started noticing girls at that age so Fella and Ursula dancing and dressed the way they were seemed pretty hot to me. |What a sexy cartoon that was for a kid.

Dude...

 

dean-what-gif.gif

 

giphy.gif

 

But to be fair, I had the hots for Daphne (Scooby Doo) and found myself exclusively dating redheads for a very long time, so I'm likey damaged myself...

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r1limited
2 minutes ago, shinyribs said:

But to be fair, I had the hots for Daphne (Scooby Doo) and found myself exclusively dating redheads for a very long time, so I'm likey damaged myself..

So you were spanking the monkey on Saturday morning cartoon Scooby Doo hour over an animated red head?
 

That beats (Pun INtended) locking myself in the bathroom when my latest dirtbike mag came for sure

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“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria

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Beemer

D ray eld


Beemer

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shinyribs

R1, I was just giving Beemer a hard time, but you took it to another level lol

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FZ07R WaNaB
On 5/3/2018 at 4:02 PM, DewMan said:

In my state there is no licensing requirements to ride a scooter on public roads, if I understand the laws correctly. That is ludicrous.  Those who have lost their license due to DUI/DWI are still on the roads anyway due to this lack of licensing requirement. If they can't legally drive their cars they just get a cheap scooter.

Let's not forget that the scooter is the vehicle of choice for illegal aliens as both they and the scooter do not need a license - WTF???

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sansnombre

Wait, in CA anyway, you have to do a ride test at DMV to get your license that he would have failed. It's not crazy difficult for someone reasonably competent on a motorcycle, but you do have to negotiate some twisty, slow speed cones and circle. He would have failed that test, clearly.

 

So was the dude licensed? If so, the state must not have a rider qualification test ride, and that's easy to fix and justify. If not, well, then there you go.

 

Getting training is on the individual - you can do it or not, but you still have to be competent to a threshold that you're not going to run into my wives car because you're an idjit. The DMV ride-test, for what it is and is not, at least strains out the truly incompetent from getting a license. He couldn't have been licensed in a state with a mandatory ride test.

 

This is one of those old conundrums that we have here in the states: personal freedom (which I value highly) vs. state-controlled imposition of some sort so you don't impose upon the freedoms/safety of your neighbors, which, being a husband and father, is a pretty big deal. A very difficult balancing act to be sure. I'm libertarian in this regard, but sense and simple observation say that we have no choice but to limit in some degree so you're not wreaking havoc on the other citizens.

 

But . . . mandatory classes for this type of thing? No. But showing a mandatory ability to a competent level? Yes.

 

IMHO

Edited by sansnombre

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rick

We have a skill test here that involves a lot of slow speed turning - some of it harp radius and short. I'd never dream of taking it on my Aprilia Futura - to big, too top heavy. Not sure I could pass it on that bike - after nearly 50 years of riding - the FZ would be a better test mule and something 200cc even better. 

 

The MSF course, that's free here, lets you take the test on something really small. Could be took a test on a 300 lb bike and then went out and bought BIG. 

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shinyribs

I rode for a long time with no endorsement. When I finally went to the DMV to take the test I failed the obstacle course. My bike physically wouldn't fit. '76 CB750F. I showed the instructor that I could not turn any tighter due to the steering stops, but she didn't care. A buddy offered to let me use his scooter, but I declined and signed up for the MSF course at a local college. A MSF certificate is a straight shot to an endorsement-  no other tests needed. They stuck me on a DR250 and I breezed through the course. What a fun, gutless bike that was. Loved that thing. 

 

The MSF course was spread out over three days. It was over 100 degrees everyday and a couple bikes fell after their sidestand went through the melted pavement. I felt so sorry for those air cooled DR's and GN's out there idling for a couple hours at a time in that heat. No idea why they didn't seize. Every fork seal on that parking lot was weeping. Never buy a used MSF bike lol

 

When the MSF instructor handed me my certificate he kinda got on me for riding my bike to class since he knew why I was there. Can't say that I blame him for that. 

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r1limited
10 hours ago, sansnombre said:

Wait, in CA anyway, you have to do a ride test at DMV to get your license that he would have failed

No you do not.  It is not mandatory to get a motorcycle endorsement to buy or own a motorcycle in CA.  You will get a ticket for not having an endorsement on that license but its a pay and who cares ticket.  So any ding dong with enough cash or credit can go buy any motorcycle and it makes no difference to the dealer if they have a license or not.

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“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria

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gregjet

There is something very pleasant about riding a light  250 single. Pretty close the the essence of motorcycling.

It has enough go to be fun but not enough to require all you attention. Said it before, if I could ride any motoGP class it would be Moto3 ( except I am too big and too heavy...).

Can't think of a better sized bike to learn on.

Modern offroad bikes have almost as much HP as many stock pre 70's "big" bikes. And way better power to weight.

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Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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shinyribs
7 hours ago, gregjet said:

There is something very pleasant about riding a light  250 single. Pretty close the the essence of motorcycling.

 

Very true! I've got an XR400 that's overbore with a high compression piston and it'll power wheelie on command in the first three gears. Clutch ups in 4th aren't hard. It runs neck and neck with my bussied WR450. I recently picked up a XR250 for my Dad to ride and it feels soooo weak. BUT...at only 30'ish lbs lighter than the XR4 it is an absolute RIOT in the woods. Amazing the difference 30lbs can make. I can't get the thing to hop on the 250 a log without zapping the engine and dumping the clutch, but I found myself instantly railing corners on that "little bike". Less power, but I was faster. 

 

Which means....the 250 will become a 300 this winter lol

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gregjet

I the days before the demise of 2 strokes ( functionally) my favorite was a 2 stroke 175( ish) the motor size of a 125 and the bike weight but more than the power/torque of a 4 stroke 250. My fav race class off road ever. Still wish kids could go get a licence on one. So confidence inspiring without getting into trouble ( Ok the brakes pretty well sucked in those days).

 

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Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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faffi

My first motorcycle was a Suzuki A100, a two-stroke. It kind of cured me. Not long after, I bought a brand new CB100, which suited me much better, what with its four-stroke engine. In fact, it was almost perfect - when followed by a strong tailwind :D In Norway, we were limited to 100cc and 7 hp from the age of 16 until the age of 18, but the big bike I dreamed of upgrading to was the Kawasaki KL250. I reckoned it was as close to perfection I could come; as simple as the CB100, and about as frugal with 100 mpg possible if ridden gently, and with better suspension. So of course I bought a CX500...

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