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faffi

For those against mandatory training

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faffi

Take a look at this

 

 

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r1limited

What is the issue?  I see nothing wrong at all with this.  I mean you cant fix stupid

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“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria

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faffi

Here, nobody is allowed to join traffic (legally) before they have demonstrated solid, basic skills. Some can do that through 10-15 hours of practice sessions (you need to prove you can do anything from walking pace figure 8s to going safely around a race track plus more) to those flunking after 50 or 100 hours. Personally, I would like to see an upper limit of 50 lessons; if you still cannot drive or ride safely, you never will become good. 

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Mr.Puss
1 hour ago, faffi said:

Take a look at this

 

 

Dummy 1: "Its easy, just let the clutch out and giver brah". Dummy 2: "No doubt! Training is for wusses, I got this".   Zero consideration? Zero sympathy.  At least hes wearing a helmet.


Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women.

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r1limited
2 hours ago, faffi said:

Here, nobody is allowed to join traffic (legally) before they have demonstrated solid, basic skills. Some can do that through 10-15 hours of practice sessions (you need to prove you can do anything from walking pace figure 8s to going safely around a race track plus more) to those flunking after 50 or 100 hours. Personally, I would like to see an upper limit of 50 lessons; if you still cannot drive or ride safely, you never will become good. 

Man thats harsh, I mean if we go that route here in the PNW they grant drivers licenses to more imbecilic morons that this guy.  I mean maybe he is handy capped and has no cognitive skill sets to do like 50 things at one time.  Your not very tolorant to handy cappers man ;)

 

I blame the sales guy, the dealer ship, the OEM, the tyre makers then handle bar makers the chinese, trump, the Brexit, them damn germans two they are the root of everything

Edited by r1limited

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria

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mjh937

At least they wrecked the cruiser and not the XSR.  

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  • Haha 3

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faffi

I am not worried about idiots harming themselves, I am worried about idiots harming innocents. In other words, training is less for the person being trained and more for everybody who can encounter them on the road.

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alexlj92

I am still against it. I don't know why regulation always seems to be the first solution shouted when there is a problem. Especially considering its terrible track record at actually solving problems.

 

We already have people who ride without a license. A higher barrier to entry isn't going to make them seek one. It will only add to their ranks as people refuse to go through the process.

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Beemer
7 hours ago, faffi said:

I am not worried about idiots harming themselves, I am worried about idiots harming innocents. In other words, training is less for the person being trained and more for everybody who can encounter them on the road.

 

14 hours ago, r1limited said:

Man thats harsh, I mean if we go that route here in the PNW they grant drivers licenses to more imbecilic morons that this guy.  I mean maybe he is handy capped and has no cognitive skill sets to do like 50 things at one time.  Your not very tolorant to handy cappers man ;)

 

I blame the sales guy, the dealer ship, the OEM, the tyre makers then handle bar makers the chinese, trump, the Brexit, them damn germans two they are the root of everything

My mom was German, I'll take that as a compliment! 😉


Beemer

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Beemer
17 hours ago, r1limited said:

What is the issue?  I see nothing wrong at all with this.  I mean you cant fix stupid

I agree and maybe the poor dumb guy simply thought he saw a squirrel and had to chase after it.

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Beemer

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Beemer

I agree to a point, guys like the one in the video should have to take a rider's course and pass it to get a motorcycle license but I'd like to ad to it. I can see how a mandatory 'riders test' (that only took maybe a couple hours) could be an option for people that chose to do so instead of having to go to some place for three days to be shown things you've known how to do for years, even decades. E.G. When I bought my bike here in Fl. I had 45 years of experience under my belt but forced to get a new Fl. license which meant I needed to get a new motorcycle endorsement as well and I'm very sure that there are many others like myself that would've loved to have had that option.

 

Then on the other hand, even the best make mistakes and have unavoidable accidents because of things people in cars do, debris on the road, weather, etc. etc. In other words, all the training in the world isn't necessarily going make you so good you won't have an accident, no one can avoid everything that unexpectedly happens in the blink of an eye. I think a line has to be drawn somewhere between sensible and paranoid to keep the public (and their wallets/purses) safe from over zealous do-gooder's that don't realize their own mistakes.

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Beemer

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r1limited
52 minutes ago, Beemer said:

I agree to a point, guys like the one in the video should have to take a rider's course and pass it to get a motorcycle license but I'd like to ad to it.

I dropped out of the rider coach training program for MSF because they have to pass the rider no matter what.  Case in point, My son picked up a bike to ride with me, never have I had a endorsment, so we took the coarse together.  I witnessed first had 4 students, one of which had been there 4 times, he flunked the first 4 because he simple fell over.  He finally passed the 5th spot because he did not fall over, yet he was clearly still incapable of riding a two wheeler let alone a motorcycle.  Using his legs as outriggers at all times he wobbled, he looked down to shift, he did everything but pay attention to where he was going.  YET STATE LAW along with the "RULES AND AFFILIATION WITH CA DMV" MSF Had to allow this person back free until he passed.  3 other students never had been on a motorcyle before, clearly 1 was there to try it out and learn before he decided to get one (Smart Dude and Hats off) He passed but was a NOOB, I sure hope he is a happy rider now.  The other two a father and daughter Both never owned a bike, purchased two HD's simply to ride to the Hollister CA Rally "I Kid You Not" that is the answer they gave as to "why are they here?" question in the instructional lab.  My question to the MSF Instructor was simple, When do you tell a rider they have no business on a bike?  His answer, we have to pass them no matter what?

Personally this crossed a moral and ethical line for me, as I could not in good conscience pass anyone by my signature an endorsement to ride a motorcycle on the streets.  If they however had a clause that stated further training before endorsement, then yes, but there is not.  Just like cagers though, as long as you pass the basics you get a license, adn we all know the dumb asses granted permission to drive a 2 ton vehicle dont we

The virtues of living in a free society?

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“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria

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mjh937

I think training is a good idea, but as many people are riding without an endorsement already any mandatory training would just be ignored by them.  I keep looking for advanced rider training courses in my area and there is nothing available.  I wish someone would offer training so I could increase my skill level and give them some of my money. 

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r1limited
11 minutes ago, mjh937 said:

I think training is a good idea, but as many people are riding without an endorsement already any mandatory training would just be ignored by them.  I keep looking for advanced rider training courses in my area and there is nothing available.  I wish someone would offer training so I could increase my skill level and give them some of my money. 

http://jp43training.com/

 


“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria

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5tonfan

If this guy was starting out he is wrong on so many levels.1 on a public road, 2 starting out leading into a curve. 3 on a bike that would appear too large for him to handle and scared him, 4. not knowing the controls. and that's just what I saw. Don't know wasn't there, might have been a drinking game or a way to get views and insurance?? Mandatory training would not have helped, how many people ride or even drive without a license on any given day. And for MSF you are given the option to return and try again, I know some who did not come back or were told by instructors that this was not for them, just my experience. 

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r1limited

^^
You mean
Pull This in
Open this WIDE OPEN
Step on this
Let Go of this

Is wrong?

:)


“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria

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markstertt
29 minutes ago, r1limited said:

^^
You mean
Pull This in
Open this WIDE OPEN
Step on this
Let Go of this

Is wrong?

:)

Not wrong...those are the exact instructions I got from my buddy...luckily it was on a Yamaha 80, on a quiet and  wide residential street. Regrettably, the street had a 90* turn at the end, luckily my 14 yr. old unhelmeted head missed the curb, the mailbox and the parked car. Who knew the more you twisted the throttle in that direction the faster you went...apparently I didn't. My buddy? Well, when he finally caught up his only concern were the scratches....on his bike. 

 

I taught my daughter to ride on a small Yamaha TTR-125...in the dirt with me on the back with hands on end of bars....then running along side giving instructions...then letting her ride to end of field and back...slow process, first gear only for awhile but soon she was following me all over the mountains on our dirt bikes. I then enrolled her in MSF course where I watched from afar as she and a dozen others learned to paddle around a parking lot where I doubt they ever got over 5mph...when the course was over I mentally noted at least 5 that had no right being on a motorcycle...unless they only rode in an empty parking lot at 5 mph. A couple I pegged for being casualties very soon if they insisted on riding in traffic...maybe 5-6 had a chance but all passed. My assessment? If training is going to be mandatory, than it should be a 2 part process, first in the dirt on 'small' dirt bikes....the first time you fall down should not be in front of a semi...dirt first gives you much better understanding of traction, braking, throttle control etc. At 60 yrs. old, my buddy asked me to teach him to ride, one weekend in the mountains on the 125's gave him the confidence to ask for more...a couple more weekends (many hours of fire roading, a few falls, no breakage) and he bought a DRZ400...back to the mountains for more rides in the dirt including pavement with a few tip overs mostly due to short leg syndrome but no harm was done. He now rides on the street, BMW and Ducati, I still worry about our traffic but at least I feel confident that his initial training in the dirt set him up for whatever comes on the street. 

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r1limited
22 minutes ago, markstertt said:

I taught my daughter to ride on a small Yamaha TTR-125...in the dirt with me on the back with hands on end of bars....then running along side giving instructions.

Man that brings back memories.   My daughter would sit on the yzf426 feet on the gas tank and ride all day with me at Hollister.  She got a XR70 and was taught the same way.  She wanted a quad so I got a raptor for her and that terrified me, then went to the TTR.  Her rheumatoid got the best of her and does not ride anymore


“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria

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faffi

Norway has the worst roads in Europe and the lowest, by a substantial margin, lowest road death rates in the world. We also have the world's strictest regulations for obtaining a driving license. If you want to be a professional truck or bus driver, you can expect to pay at least 10,000 USD for the driving sessions alone. Then there is a 140 hour theoretical school you also have to take and pass the exam. I know most of you will scream, but no matter how you twist it, this regime do save a substantial number of lives. Even if it is over the top, and you could probably reduce the requirements somewhat with no loss in safety.

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DewMan

Training doesn't need to be mandatory. Being tested to show a minimum of proficiency definitely should be. This doesn't matter how many wheels they want to ride on a public street, be it two, three, four or twenty.

 

I don't care if someone decides they want to risk their own life on the street without the skills needed but I didn't volunteer to be a possible victim of their lack of skill.

 

In my state there is no licensing requirements to ride a scooter on public roads, if I understand the laws correctly. That is ludicrous.  Those who have lost their license due to DUI/DWI are still on the roads anyway due to this lack of licensing requirement. If they can't legally drive their cars they just get a cheap scooter.

 

 


DewMan
 
Just shut up and ride.

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gregjet

I like it when people for high density tiny countries go one about mandatory training. I live in Queensland Australia and we have a similat problem with the capital being in the high density population in one tiny corner of the state. The rest of the state has very low density, and for the most part NO facilities  for such training. Yet the government brings in these regimes that require formal training for people that are a thousand kilometers from training facilities. What with all the middle class safety paranoia.

Norway is a big country ...right? 385000sgkm with 5.2million people. Queensland ( just one state in Australia and not the biggest nor the least dense population) is 17000000sqkm and has 4.9 million. Admittedly , both Norway and Queensland have almost all their population in the extreme south, and I suspect all their facilities for training.

Good training is VERY desirable but mandatory formal training is nothing more than discrimination against people that don't live in the big cities.

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Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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rick

Hopefully, only his pride was hurt. And, thankfully he hurt no one else. 

 

Damn trees are always getting in the way   

 

 

 

 

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r1limited

I dont care what anyone says
If you cant pat your head and rub your belly at the same time you should not get a license for anything IMO

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“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria

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rick
46 minutes ago, r1limited said:

I dont care what anyone says
If you cant pat your head and rub your belly at the same time you should not get a license for anything IMO

while riding of course! 

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pattonme
7 hours ago, r1limited said:

I dropped out of the rider coach training program for MSF because they have to pass the rider no matter what.  ... His answer, we have to pass them no matter what?

MSF proper has no such position (or didn't) and I taught for 8 years. It might be CA DMV adopting the "everyone gets a participant trophy" nonsense to change the rules... Unlimited re-takes is fine just so long as the guy isn't a risk to others on the range. We (in IL and VA) could dismiss a student at any time if there were a danger to others. If the 4-time loser kept being failed because he kept falling over during the test, well that's the point. If you can't manage to stay upright, you haven't exhibited even the most basic of bike control skills. But frankly dropping the bike would have been endemic to his entire 2.5 day experience and if the instructors were unable to identity and help him solve his problem then they weren't doing their job! (unless he truly was unwilling to learn or physically compromised)

 

There were some students during my career who managed to "pass" the course (19 or less demerits) who clearly were not ready. My fellow instructors would have face to face with them and make it abundantly clear that they were strongly advised to get further training. Not a one had any problem admitting their woeful state of skill and happily engaged in follow-on work. The only couple of AHOles (brats or court-mandated) I had in my class failed spectacularly all by themselves - we didn't have to grudgingly pass them. Karma and all that.

 

Libertarians will argue that horse riding didn't require a permit. True. But the vanishing majority learned how to ride while under close supervision in a controlled environment. Getting thrown by a horse hurts a lot and you quickly learn or self-select out. Plus 1HP is a lot less lethal than 30 even if the meat horse weighs 2x as much a Rebel 250. Plus the meat horse has 2 eyes and a brain and is likely to have some input into the situation whereas a dumb metal machine has nothing similar.

 

 

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