The ol old helmet debate

[r1limited]

OK,

So my Corsair RX 7 Chin strap button will not click into place anymore.  The ol Aria is seeing its age, rebuilt two seasons ago, I did not replace the straps.  Soooooooo I goes and opens a case with ARAI asking if I can get a replacment chin strap and send it in.  and this is to the point, The helmet is 11 years old, and looks show room, never been bounced I felt no need to replace as it is kept in a very dry place, never been wet outside of sweat, cleaned with NON petrolium based cleaners and well maintained to say the least.  So here is the answer to the most asked questions on Helmets at least offcially from ARAI

 

Quote

Hi Mr. ToCheepToByNewHelmets,
 

Chin strap replacement is not available on the RX-7 Corsair, as the helmet is more than 7 years old. Arai Helmet recommends discontinuing use of a helmet that is more than 7 years past its date of manufacture, as the protection ability of the helmet may be compromised regardless of storage conditions or use. Chin strap replacement can only be done by a certified Arai technician in our office, and our technicians can only work on current helmets.

Thank you for your understanding,
Support

 

 

 

Thank you!

Arai

Notice the words in RED

 

I think its a conspiracy,  Officially (And I say this in gest) I am or have been looking for a new lid.  The ol helmet is starting to show signs of wear and tear.  Little items like trim getting loose and the button not snapping.  So I guess I gots me use out of the thing.  Liek a good pair of sneakers ya just cannot get rid of them, I mean how cares if there are holes and you hafta super tape the soles on.

[faffi]

I think they also consider liability. What if you have an accident and the lid crack or a strap mount fails? Even if that was due to a hard smash, you know someone are going to try and pin the blame on them. 11 yrs from a helmet is good, time to upgrade it to a mantle piece 😉

[Beemer]

I think faffi is right them being concerned about being liable, there probaly a lot of companies that operate that way but some seem to take advantage of people under the guise of wanting to protect you.

I had a somewhat harsh experience from a company that appeared to be real concerned with liability, a business called "Just Brakes" in Austin, Tx. I went there one day to have some work done on the ol' 78' Jimmy and while sitting in the waiting area one of the employees approached a woman sitting beside me and told her that her brake job was going to cost her $600 and some odd dollars. She said she thought that was rather high and the guy then explained what all was wrong. It didn't make any difference to her decision to just go somewhere else cheaper and she conveyed her feelings to them but guess what the catch was.......

 

They told her that her vehicle "was not safe to drive" and that "by law, they could not allow her to leave with her vehicle." Talk about legally being held for ransom! The woman felt she had no choice but to do business with them and she probably didn't think to just have it towed from their lot to some place a block away just to escape the noose, so to speak. I was a little shocked to hear that a business could legally do that and it made me wonder if I was next but I thought, nah, not for my small mechanical problem but you know what, they got me, too! I only wanted new brake pads installed because they had a special going on, brake pads for 4 wheels installed for $99. How could I pass that up?!

 

After their "required" inspection (or so they say) they told me I needed a new, right rear brake caliper installed because it was leaking. I told them I wanted to see it and they showed me a caliper that had a very minute (a drop at most, not even a trail of it) bit of brake fluid that had barely seeped out of the seal. I told them that that was so minor it wasn't effecting my brakes, I could stop on a dime they worked so good but that fell on deaf ears. They told me, "by law", I couldn't leave with my truck until it was replaced. I thought about it for a second, it was cheap so rather than a tow I just let them do the work and never go there again. I can understand a company being concerned for ones safety but sometimes you get the feeling people really aren't concerned with your safety, but your money. "Just Brakes" avoid them. JUST BRAKES, AVOID THEM.

[r1limited]

On Liability, this is the same reason a shop will not plug and tube your tire.  But IMO I think it is more of selling a new tire over not plugging it.  Just like my lid, it is in great shape physically, that said I have no idea if there are any hairline fractures or separation of composites, I can tell you the entire helmet was rebuilt 2 seasons ago.  However I am very nervous on the strap itself, nylon deteriorates and now that I cannot get this replaced I am forced to purchase another lid and I guess that being forced is my Achilles heal

[robbo10]

My understanding - received information - of helmets is that they gradually deteriorate from the outset. That the protection it provides eventually becomes insufficient. I replaced mine after 10 years even though the original 'looked' OK.

[Grip it & Rip it]

I think liability is a big issue. The helmet would very likely still offer great protection in a crash, but at 11 years old, there’s no way the manufacturer can legally guarantee that everything would function the way it should. Helmets are designed to be light for comfort, and light materials like plastics and foams are not going to be the most durable, long lasting materials. That being said, of course these companies want to sell as many helmets as possible, so they will probably err on the conservative side when estimating the longevity of their product. I highsided in a 30 year old shoei at under 20 mph and took it on the chin protector, and that helmet saved my jaw/face.

[faffi]

@Beemer When it comes to brakes, I see no reason to skimp at all. Even the tiniest of leaks means a seal is going, and it can go totally and instantly without warning. That is not just something people say to make us scared, it happens. And since IMO brakes are the most important part on any vehicle, I reckon it is also the last place to skimp. There are lots of vehicles on the road with poor brakes, and it worries me because these vehicles to end up in accidents every year.

 

That said, I agree that often silly little things are made into something important without much reason.

[mjh937]

I refuse to skimp on brakes, tires and gear.  My helmet will be five years old next year and I plan on replacing it.  I do not want to take chances with my safety and would rather replace a good helmet than find out after a crash that it was not in as good a condition as I thought.  

 

@Beemer, I would never go back to a shop that would hold my vehicle hostage.  I would call the police and let them sort it out if they would not give me my car back.  It seems that the shop could make the customer sign a paper saying why the vehicle is unsafe to drive and that the customer is takiing it at their own risk.  I would think that would absolve the shop of liability (I hope I am just not being naive about that). 

[DewMan]

I don't understand why there is any debate about an older helmet. This statement by SNELL seems logical to me.

Why should you replace your helmet every five years?The five-year replacement recommendation is based on a consensus by both helmet manufacturers and the Snell Foundation. Glues, resins and other materials used in helmet production can affect liner materials. Hair oils, body fluids and cosmetics, as well as normal "wear and tear" all contribute to helmet degradation. Petroleum based products present in cleaners, paints, fuels and other commonly encountered materials may also degrade materials used in many helmets possibly degrading performance. Additionally, experience indicates there will be a noticeable improvement in the protective characteristic of helmets over a five-year period due to advances in materials, designs, production methods and the standards. Thus, the recommendation for five-year helmet replacement is a judgment call stemming from a prudent safety philosophy.

 

That being said I'm not sure every 5 years should be a hard and fast rule. A helmet used daily in hot humid conditions and left hanging off the bike in direct sunlight regularly I'd say five years is stretching the life further than I'd be comfortable with. But if it's a helmet worn a few times a month for short durations and stored in a controlled environment never having been impacted or abused, I can see 5-10 years being more than feasible.

 

I would question even a brand new helmet that is 11+ years old, even if it has never been out of the box. If I'd been wearing one that long I'd say give it a Viking funeral. It's more than paid for itself and is due for a well earned retirement. ✌️

[shinyribs]

12 hours ago, Beemer said:

I think faffi is right them being concerned about being liable, there probaly a lot of companies that operate that way but some seem to take advantage of people under the guise of wanting to protect you.

I had a somewhat harsh experience from a company that appeared to be real concerned with liability, a business called "Just Brakes" in Austin, Tx. I went there one day to have some work done on the ol' 78' Jimmy and while sitting in the waiting area one of the employees approached a woman sitting beside me and told her that her brake job was going to cost her $600 and some odd dollars. She said she thought that was rather high and the guy then explained what all was wrong. It didn't make any difference to her decision to just go somewhere else cheaper and she conveyed her feelings to them but guess what the catch was.......

 

They told her that her vehicle "was not safe to drive" and that "by law, they could not allow her to leave with her vehicle." Talk about legally being held for ransom! The woman felt she had no choice but to do business with them and she probably didn't think to just have it towed from their lot to some place a block away just to escape the noose, so to speak. I was a little shocked to hear that a business could legally do that and it made me wonder if I was next but I thought, nah, not for my small mechanical problem but you know what, they got me, too! I only wanted new brake pads installed because they had a special going on, brake pads for 4 wheels installed for $99. How could I pass that up?!

 

After their "required" inspection (or so they say) they told me I needed a new, right rear brake caliper installed because it was leaking. I told them I wanted to see it and they showed a caliper that had a very minute (a drop at most, not even a trail of it) bit of brake fluid that had barely seeped out of the seal. I told them that that was so minor it wasn't effecting my brakes, I could stop on a dime they worked so good but that fell on deaf ears. They told, "by law", I couldn't leave with my truck until it was replaced. I thought about it for a second, it was cheap so rather than a tow I just let them do the work and never go there again. I can understand a company being concerned for ones safety but sometimes you get the feeling people really aren't concerned with your safety, but your money. "Just Brakes" avoid them.

This is incredibly annoying, but also a very real thing. I have a friend who is an auto mechanic and they truly are forced to do this. You don't have to hire that shop, but they aren't allowed to let you drive it away. You can always call a tow truck or  buddy with a trailer. 

[shinyribs]

4 hours ago, mjh937 said:

 It seems that the shop could make the customer sign a paper saying why the vehicle is unsafe to drive and that the customer is takiing it at their own risk.  I would think that would absolve the shop of liability (I hope I am just not being naive about that). 

Sort of, but not completely. The driver of the car may be claiming they don't hold the shop responsible is their brakes fail and they can't stop, but the innocent car they end up slamming in to would likely not be happy with the idea that the shop let that car out on the road, regardless of the the car's owner thought. Then you're back at square one with the shop being on the hook again. It's a bad situation, for sure. 

 

I do HVAC for a living. By law, if I see a furnace with a leaking heat exchanger, rusty flue pipe,etc.. I HAVE to condemn that furnace and immediately shut it down if the homeowner decides they dont want, or can't afford, for me to repair it on the spot. Doesn't matter if it's 0 degrees outside and your pipes might freeze, I HAVE to do it. Trust me, it's never fun being the bad guy. I've been cussed plenty of times over this, but I can't lose my licenses and insurance over these things.

 

I can only hope that those people angry at me for doing my job don't take to the internets, posting my company name, and slamming me for bad business practices to scare off potential future customers because I was legally forced to do something that sucked. Owning your own business is not always easy. 

[Beemer]

I get what you're saying and I understand the law but there's a flip side to that coin in the case I'm talking about that deals with vehicles, not HVAC. I also understand that if that same seepage from that caliper had been spotted while having a state inspection performed the law would suddenly turn a blind eye and the technician would've told me to go and have it fixed and then come back. No law requiring them to hold my vehicle to keep it off the road or have me call for a tow. Do you see the contradiction? That's the kind of bs that irks me and to think that there is a good chance that some big corporation like the one mentioned had their lobbyists make that law happen for no other reason than to line their pockets, not protect you, just makes it ten times worse. I don't think I'm wrong on that and some may think  I'm one cynical sob but hey, they don't walk in my shoes and it keeps me on my toes. 😉

[r1limited]

Helmets to brakes

 

Total
 

[rick]

State safety inspections here for bikes are a bit odd. If you drive into the shop with worn pads or whatever - they'll fail you on the test and give you a week or 2 to get it fixed on your own, bring it back and only pay for the sticker - you pay for the labor if it fails. I can't ever remember hearing about someone being told to leave and walk home while the shop held the bike and ordered parts. The shop I go to for my Aprilia will not work on it - even though they used to have the only dealership here. 

 

As for he helmet, UV energy does do damage to the shell over time - it goes right thru the paint. Th other thing is that's really important - that likely can't be easily replaced is the expanded styrofoam between the interior and the shell. This is the stuff that decelerates yer head in an impact. Ozone and O2 will deteriorate that stuff over time - and I can't tell you how many times I see guys plunk helmets onto mirrors where the sharp edge will compress that foam a bit. 

 

Sounds like you've taken really good care of that helmet. I love my Arai RXQ.  But Arai is still not gonna take the risk it won't hold up in an accident after a decade of use - for whatever reason. And so they draw the line at 7 years. Besides, they'd rather sell you a new lid than risk bad press or a lawsuit.  

[Beemer]

4 hours ago, r1limited said:

Helmets to brakes

 

Total
 

 

 

Did I do thaaat?!

[Beemer]

On 5/1/2018 at 4:01 PM, faffi said:

@Beemer When it comes to brakes, I see no reason to skimp at all. Even the tiniest of leaks means a seal is going, and it can go totally and instantly without warning. That is not just something people say to make us scared, it happens. And since IMO brakes are the most important part on any vehicle, I reckon it is also the last place to skimp. There are lots of vehicles on the road with poor brakes, and it worries me because these vehicles to end up in accidents every year.

 

That said, I agree that often silly little things are made into something important without much reason.

@faffi It's funny how when they find a safety issue where you have a vehicle inspected they let you drive it away and give you X amount of days to drive it around some more to have it fixed. They don't pretend to know your fate when you drive way, they instead leave it up to a court of law to decide if you are at fault if you get into an accident, as they should. Sometimes the liable thing goes too far.

[faffi]

Well, how would you feel if it was one of your family members that got hurt or killed because someone opted to take a risk driving with poor brakes? I know that you would likely drive slowly home and fix the brakes responsibly, causing little or no added risks. But there are tons of egotistical morons out there why doesn't give a toss. However, I do agree that there is a blurry line between when big brother should be deciding and when you have the right to decide for yourself. And that line will vary from one person to another; some will have rigid laws for everything, some will have no laws at all, most of us sits somewhere between the two extremes.

[r1limited]

2 hours ago, Beemer said:

@faffi It's funny how when they find a safety issue where you have a vehicle inspected they let you drive it away and give you X amount of days to drive it around some more to have it fixed. They don't pretend to know your fate when you drive way, they instead leave it up to a court of law to decide if you are at fault if you get into an accident, as they should. Sometimes the liable thing goes too far.

Ya Huh I know

I mean like one time I stubbed my toe and I had to go to the bathroom.  Once there I could not find any reason why I was there, so I went to the store instead.  I foudn out there that all that stuff comes from a farmer and he or she or heshe or shehe or whatever gets money from the goverment for growing corn to put in gasoline.  I mean like thats freakin awesome

[rider]

On 5/1/2018 at 9:01 AM, Beemer said:

They told me, "by law", I couldn't leave with my truck until it was replaced.

I found this:  https://jalopnik.com/the-i-cant-let-you-leave-brake-scam-1714376967

Tell them to show you which "law" they are following.  Have them put it in writing, then call the police.  I don't know about Florida, but in most places, you can't hold property unless you have some kind of lien or some such claim on it.

It would be nice if mechanics could "ground" a car like an A&P mechanic can ground an aircraft.  But they would have to follow strict rules.  If I as an A&P ground an aircraft, I also have to document everything that is wrong in the logbook and sign my name and license # to it.  I can't just do it to make money, a complaint to the FAA and subsequent inspection showing that I falsified a record would probably cause me to lose my license.  I can hold it for the price of the inspection on a mechanics' lien, though, like the article says, but I probably wouldn't do that unless the customer was a complete jackass.  Even then I would just probably want him to leave.

 

[Beemer]

10 hours ago, rider said:

I found this:  https://jalopnik.com/the-i-cant-let-you-leave-brake-scam-1714376967

Tell them to show you which "law" they are following.  Have them put it in writing, then call the police.  I don't know about Florida, but in most places, you can't hold property unless you have some kind of lien or some such claim on it.

It would be nice if mechanics could "ground" a car like an A&P mechanic can ground an aircraft.  But they would have to follow strict rules.  If I as an A&P ground an aircraft, I also have to document everything that is wrong in the logbook and sign my name and license # to it.  I can't just do it to make money, a complaint to the FAA and subsequent inspection showing that I falsified a record would probably cause me to lose my license.  I can hold it for the price of the inspection on a mechanics' lien, though, like the article says, but I probably wouldn't do that unless the customer was a complete jackass.  Even then I would just probably want him to leave.

 

That's what I'm talking about right there! Documents that prove fear mongering people can't go around ripping people off in the name of safety. If someone wants to be all uptight about their own safety that's their choice but they shouldn't push it on others. Sorry about the thread jack but it wasn't intentional, I was just making a comparison on the subject but it took off like wild fire. I didn't see that coming. 😬 ✌️

[Beemer]

13 hours ago, r1limited said:

Ya Huh I know

I mean like one time I stubbed my toe and I had to go to the bathroom.  Once there I could not find any reason why I was there, so I went to the store instead.  I foudn out there that all that stuff comes from a farmer and he or she or heshe or shehe or whatever gets money from the goverment for growing corn to put in gasoline.  I mean like thats freakin awesome

I heard once that the right blend of pee & Kellog's Corn flakes will get you 20 extra mpg. ! 🤓

[r1limited]

1 hour ago, Beemer said:

I heard once that the right blend of pee & Kellog's Corn flakes will get you 20 extra mpg. ! 🤓

Thats wrong, you must have heard that from a Kawasiki rider.  Truth is three Carne Asada Burritos and Black Beens

[faffi]

Found this

 

[sunblock]

@r1limited

Dude, when I was bitching about my gloves only lasting 3 years you said 3 years is more than enough... hold on, lemme quote you:

Quote

getting ticked off over a life expectancy policy?  well my priorities are more toward having to have to pay for someone getting thier wanker cut off and turned inside out.

Now it's my turn to say 10 years is crazy years for a helmet, get a new one.

[faffi]

I'm still looking for a replacement helmet after I crashed and cracked my AGV Rossi replica last fall - I simply cannot find a helmet that is comfortable for my head shape, makes wearing glasses easy and comfy and has room for loud speakers. In the meantime, I use an old AGV GP-1 helmet that I do not know how old is. -09- is printed on the EC-approval label  on the strap, and 2009 could be correct. Strangely, it is EC-approved for UK (E11), whereas I bought it locally in Norway. Anyway, despite being old, it has sat in a bag in a dark closet for most of its life and has been on the road for no more than 18 months and less than 10k miles in total, so I consider it to be safe enough despite its age. It will, however, be replaced the moment I find a replacement worth paying for. Price is irrelevant, comfort is what I want. And double D-rings; quick-locks are prevailing here, and I hate them with a vengeance.